The Christ in Prophecy Journal

Interview by August: The Rapture of the Church


What is this Rapture of the Church all about?

On Saturday, November 19, 2011, I was interviewed by host August Rosado of the BlogTalkRadio show Signs of the Times. August is a Bible prophecy teacher and preacher and founder of a ministry called Today in Bible Prophecy. He has and continues to be a personable guest on our television program Christ in Prophecy. He and I discussed the various aspects of the Rapture of the Church.

August Rosado and Nathan Jones

The Rapture of the Church

August Rosado: Everybody wants to know what the Rapture is. How can we know when it will happen? I know Jesus said that no man knows the day and no man knows the hour, but this question seems to be on the lips of everybody I run into in the Church today. Even in the secular arena people want to know just what is the Rapture. What is this Rapture of the Church all about? Can we know when it will happen?

Nathan Jones: Well, sadly, the Rapture has gotten a lot of attention as of late, and not for positive reasons. Harold Camping made two predictions this year in 2011 that Jesus would come back, with the latest being October 21st. Obviously, of course, the Lord did not come back and the world did not end. But, it got the secular world talking about this word “Rapture.” Sometimes the secular world is more interested in what the Rapture is than the Church.

You know you can’t find the world “Rapture” in the Bible, just like you can’t find the word “Bible” in the Bible, or you can’t find the word “Trinity” in the Bible. And yet, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 has the word “Rapture” in it. I’ll read the verse, “After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will be with the Lord forever.”

Those words “caught up” is in the Greek harpazo. When the Bible was translated into Latin for the 1,100 years that we had the Latin Vulgate harpazo was retranslated as rapio. In the English version we use “caught up,” but in the Latin thos words would be rapio or anglicized rapture. So, I could say “that great snatching away,” or “the great catching up,” or “the great taking out.” But, it’s easier just to say Rapture based on the Latin rapio.

The verses on the Rapture you can find in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, and John 14 makes reference to it as well. So, there are a lot of verses in the Bible that talk about the Rapture of the Church. There are also verses about Jesus’ Second Coming like Zechariah 14:1-21, Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-37, and Luke 21:25-27. They also speak about Jesus’ return, though at a later time.

The Rapture of the Church is about when Jesus will come in the clouds. He will call up all those who have trusted Him as Savior. First, those who have died in Christ since the Church was founded at Pentecost up to then will be resurrected first, then those believers in Christ who are still alive. The event will happen in the blink of an eye. Just like the snap of your fingers, it will happen so fast.

We are told we will hear the archangel call out something, though we don’t know what. Maybe he says, “Come up here!” Or, “It’s time!” Or, “The Lord is waiting for you.”

We will then be transformed out of our physical bodies and into our new glorified bodies. We will be resurrected and we will all meet the Lord in the air.

After that, the remaining world left behind will experience seven years of Tribulation, plus if there is an intermediate time before the Tribulation begins, that will befall the earth. That Tribulation time period will be a different era, a different dispensation.

The Rapture of the Church is about the Lord coming for all those who believed in Him for the last 2,000 plus years, to take them to Heaven before He pours His wrath out onto the world for its continued sin and rebellion against Him.

Signs of the Rapture?

August Rosado: People sometimes ask if anything has to be fulfilled in order for the Rapture of the Church to take place. I’m reminded of what the Pharisees and Sadducees wanted in Matthew 16 when they were looking for a sign from Jesus. Jesus responded by saying, “This adulterous and sinful generation looks after a sign, but no sign will be given to them except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” Many say today that something has to be fulfilled in order for the Rapture to take place. Is that true?

Nathan Jones: No, the Rapture of the Church is a signless event.

Now, we can know that there are signs of the times that point to the Lord’s soon return, so we know we are getting closer to the time. But, Jesus said in Matthew 24:42 and 44, “Therefore keep watch because you do not know what day your Lord will come. So you also must be ready because the Son of man will come in an hour when you do not expect Him.” We know that the Lord will come and take His Church, but we don’t know when. As a matter of fact, Jesus in Matthew 24:36 said, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” There are other verses like Titus 2:13 and 1 John 2:28 and so forth that confirms that nobody knows when the Rapture of the Church will occur, and so therefore nothing has to proceed it for the Rapture to happen.

In the next part of this Interview by August, we’ll contrast the Rapture with the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

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Dr. Nathan E. Jones

As the Internet Evangelist at Lamb & Lion Ministries, Nathan reaches out to the over 4.5 billion people accessible over the Internet with the Good News of Jesus Christ. He also co-hosts the ministry's television program Christ in Prophecy and podcast The Truth Will Set You Free.

65 CommentsLeave a Comment

  • I believe the birth pains of the revelation are happening now. I also know Jesus said the generation that sees 'these' things will not pass… one thing being the birth of the nation of Israel. Well it is just shy of 70 years if considering 1948 an over due if considering 1967. Soooo- it is at the door for Jesus to come in a Cloud of Glory and for the church to be removed and the two witnesses come???? Consider this could the two witnesses be here now ie. that being the old and new testament gospel and then 'they' are removed? I can see the world being overjoyed at Christians and Israel being no more. Anyhow-anyway you see it IT is soon. Thanks for listening. God Bless!

  • The greatest sign that identifies that the Rapture is near is the preparation of Israel, though presently physically restored, we know also that they must be spiritually restored! The Apostle Paul in Romans 11 identifies clearly with the restoration of the natural branches representing Israel! The 144,000 will be a product of this restoration to come.

    Without Israel in a position to bear the message of the Gospel, the Rapture could not occur, for the Lord will not leave the earth without a messenger of his plan of salvation! We also know that the complete fulfillment of Joel 2:28,29 as well as Ezekiel 39:29 takes place prior to the wrath of God being poured out upon the unrepentant and wicked inhabitants of the earth.

    Israel has always existed as the primary sign to identify the timing of the Rapture as well as the Second Coming. The Gog/Magog battle of Ezekiel 38/39 is the fulcrum for which all these events rest. Without the completion of this prophecy, Israel would not be in a position to construct the Third Temple nor gather in all the exiles to prepare for the Messianic Age!

    If all the messengers of light (ambassadors of the Gospel) were suddenly snatched from the earth leaving nothing but darkness, who then would bear the message of hope to a lost world. Though I believe the Church will be taken before the time of wrath, I believe however that Israel must first be prepared by God to receive the mantle as messenger. Therefore I continue to hold to my belief that the Doctrine of Imminence is an error!

  • It is also true that while the AntiChrist will be given power to make war with the saints and overcome them that the message of the Gospel will continue to be provided! While the Tribulation Saints will be killed for their witness, for the Word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, an angelic messenger will then bear the everlasting gospel! This proves without a doubt my point, that God will not leave the inhabitants of this earth without his message of salvation.

    The Apostles readily identified that whether we are alive or rest in the dust of the earth we can have confidence in the Lord that as he has promised, we will live with him! This is the Blessed Hope! We are always to be watchful, looking in expectation for the coming of the Lord to gather us, yet we must also realize that we are watching for specific signs to herald our gathering!

    The wicked and perverse generation that did seek a sign, looked for the Lord to deliver a rebellious nation from captivity, yet their hearts remained far from him. So it was that they received only the sign of Jonas, that the Lord would remain hidden from Israel until they again sought him in obedience, in faith, and in pureness of heart. Those that remain rebels will not see him yet be cast into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth!

  • Rodney

    The restoration of the nation of Israel is not given as an indicator to the Rapture of the church anywhere in Scripture. That idea is subjective. If I am wrong, please supply the Scriptures.

    The spiritual restoration of Israel as a nation does not happen until they ask Jesus to return. The restoration is at the very end of the 70th Week. If your idea were true, then the church goes through the 70th Week for the Rapture to occur when Israel is restored.

    These ideas come from the Postie position who use the same to ‘prove’ the church HAS to go through the Trib as ‘witnesses’.
    God is never without a ‘witness’.

    First comes Elijah BEFORE the Trib. Then the Two Witnesses AND the 144,000 are selected and sealed AND there are the ‘Gospel Angels’

    PLUS and most importantly, God’s written Word will be preserved which is living and active and Holy Spirit breathed.

    One man and a Bible by the power of the Holy Spirit will reap a huge harvest of believers, especially among those who have knowledge of the truth, yet never put their faith in Jesus to save. These in turn will pass on the Gospel to thousands more after the shock of the removal of the Church from earth.

    Again, there are NO sign given for the Rapture. NONE whatsoever. ALL the birth pang signs are concerned with the 2nd Coming of Messiah NOT the rapture of the Church. Israel does NOT gather in the exiles for the Messianic age. That is achieved by angelic intervention as in Mark 13:27.

    So many subjective notions born from the emotions and not by searching the Scriptures that do not support this fanciful notion. This is EXACTLY the stance of the emerging church apostasy is using by way of 'interpretation'.

    Individual Jews will be used by God; but national Israel is gathered in belief at the END of the Tribulation. NO signs are given for the Rapture of the Church – not one.

    We are observing the signs for the coming 70th Week. God is NEVER without a witness. Copies of His inerrant Word are written right across the world; the Holy Spirit remains as the teacher even when the Church has been removed.

    The Apostles lived in hope of the Rapture and taught hope for the Rapture in the days they were living. That is what imminency means.

    ALSO remember that at that time ISRAEL WAS STILL IN THE LAND, their dispersion as a nation by the Romans was still future.

    Israel being in the land was obviously not a prerequisite for the Rapture. Not then, not now!

  • The Blessed Hope is active present tense continuous and was applied by Paul and the Apostles while they were still alive.

    The dead cannot watch or hope; their reward is sealed. It is the living who have the blessed assurance that their believing loved ones who have died, will also be raised with them at the Rapture of the Church.

    The Blessed Hope is so much more than being expectant for the imminent return of Jesus in the Rapture; the blessed hope PURIFIES those who have this hope within them.

    Led by Postribs (Posties) robotic teachings, this is an attack against a God given, specific blessing. Not only does the imminent Blessed Hope support us when our world is falling all around us; not only are we purified by the imminent Blessed Hope, it is deemed to be so important that it deserves a crown reward.

    This is the faith Jesus wonders about when He returns; how many of us will He find holding tightly to the faith of the imminent Blessed Hope after 2000 plus years have passed? Obviously very few and the scoffers are multitudinous.

    This violence done against this most precious Blessed Hope owned by the Apostles and their hearer’s, is a direct attack by Satan to rob the Church from this crown, and ultimately to rob Christ of the honour and worship He deserves from those who DO hold onto the imminent Blessed Hope in these dark apostate days.

    What you are claiming Rodney, is totally the opposite of what Paul taught the Blessed Hope to be.

    We are called to watch for Jesus Himself, to keep alert with the imminence of the Blessed Hope on fire in our attitude of expectancy. The Church is not given any specific signs!

    The ONLY signs given are non-signs ie the norm to be expected, and the specific signs for the 2nd Coming of Jesus that is preceded by the 70th Week signs such as the beginning of World Wars, increased earthquakes…

    This undermining of the imminent Blessed Hope serves no purpose whatsoever other than to rob, steal, kill, destroy. It is an explicit teaching of the enemy of our souls and needs to be recognised as such and repented of unless the Lord return suddenly with the condition of an unrepentant heart sealed into that faithlessness for eternity. Personal loss will be suffered at the Bema, as will those who have been persuaded by this lie. Loss is therefore suffered by the Body of Christ and in turn Christ will suffer the loss of praise, honour, glory and worship that SHOULD have been His but stolen by the thief of our souls.

    I want Jesus to find at least my faith in the imminent Blessed Hope still living and active; but there won’t be many more, I fear, thanks to this destructive teaching.

    Apart from my Bible, and given the choice of only ONE faith inspiring book to read, it would have to be “Kept From the Hour” by Gerald B. Stanton. ISBN: 1-56453-091-4

  • Sue, how beautifully written. I was not aware of all of that.. tho most i was…. i didnt know that the Lord is robbed of praise for those not holding on to this most precious blessed hope. My heart is overwhelmed as i tell my Lord how nuch i love Him and ever moment of my life i desire to be with Him …

    Rodney, it may not be my place to say this but search ur heart on this matter. Please.

  • E.I., I do not follow a PostTrib position, it is just that my view is that there is a transition between the Church and Israel, a changing of batons, so to speak! I earnestly look forward to the Lord coming to take his Bride, yet I do know that he instucted us to watch, to be sober, and to pray! If then there are no signs identified with the Rapture, what then may I ask are we watching for?

    I know many have painted the picture that the Rapture will throw the world into chaos, yet prophecy does not seem to identify with this! I frankly believe that though there be many professing Christians alive today, that very few are authentic! There is no scriptural evidence that suggests the world is shocked! "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there are that find it"-Matthew 7:14.

    If anyone can provide any scriptural evidence to prove that the Rapture will cause great panic and chaos across the globe, I would appreciate any references, yet to this date, I personally have found none! The good and faithful servant is the one that is watching for the return of his/her Lord, observing all things.

    To say that the Apostles held an expectation that the Lord would return in their day, what is it then that Christ told Peter in John 21:18,19? Did he not identify that Peter would grow old and by martyred? Likewise the Apostle Paul frequently and personally identified with the resurrection, "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead"-Phillipians 3:11.

    We are to always be in expectation, longing for the coming of the Lord, as even all creation groans within, yet we must also realize that Israel received partial blindness until the fulness of the Gentiles! We also know that the Lord would return to gather his Church on the morning of the Third Day! One day with the Lord is as a thousand years, a thousand years as one day!

  • Rodney im curious… in simple language… dont u believe in ur heart if hearts that our prescious Lord is going to spare us .. his bride… from His wrath on this earth and its unbelieving people?

  • Susie, indeed the Lord will come and gather all believers, for we are not subject to wrath, yet I also believe that all things have an appointed time. Consider this scripture: "For I would not, brethren, they ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles become in"-Romans 11:25.

    In the verse provided, the context of the message is addressed by the Apostle Paul to Gentile believers to not boast of the fall of Israel, for it was by their rejection that the Gospel was preached to them! The Apostle Paul instructs them to rejoice to see Israel return to faith and so when the full number of Gentiles (Only God Knows), are grafted in to the Tree of Promise, then will the scales be lifted off the eyes of Israel!

    The Lord has promised to redeem Israel and so it will be done according to his will! How can anyone regard Israel as an enemy, yet concerning the gospel, they are enemies of your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes, as recorded in Romans 11:28. I suppose I have a very different perspective regarding some things, for I am a Jew, that desires to see the redemption of all Israel, yet I also know that partial blindness remains!

  • Susie, to put it more bluntly, without Israel, there would have been know Bible, no Messiah born of a Virgin, no hope of salvation, or resurrection! It seems many take for granted that it was through the least among the nations, that all the blessings flow! I only ask that we consider the fact that some believe that Israel will remain in unbelief until the moment of the Second Advent as foolishness! Do the 144,000 then remain blind and those also which hear the message of the Gospel being preached by their brethren and accept Christ in faith. The ignorance of such a claim astounds me!

  • I want to make it clear, I am not standing in opposition to biblical truth, I am seeking to reveal that what is commonly taught today is not biblical truth but fables!

  • Rodney, there are two covenants. The one promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Kingdom on Earth and the Kingdom of Heaven for the Church. God deals with the dispensations one at a time. Law, then grace, then law again when the Church is taken out. The Jewish people will be gathered back into their nation in unbelief. Until Jesus returns with the Church and they see the scars from the cross, they will not believe in Jesus as their Messiah. They have the opportunity to believe now and many will but as a nation they are blinded. Sorry, that is their punishment for their unbelief and disobedience.

  • Rodney

    YOUR very own personal views are not unique and you follow the Postie view in many ways.

    YOUR view of a relay race is not what happened when God suspended His work with Israel. At the death of the Messiah, God tore the Temple veil from top to bottom indicating there was no more connection between Him and Israel through Temple worship, but through the torn flesh and Blood of Christ Jesus.

    However the Church was still FUTURE at that point; it was born in Acts 2 FIFTY days later. There was a gap of indeterminate length other than being told to ‘tarry in Jerusalem – until…’ No ‘baton’ was handed on from Israel to the Church. It is all a work of God, not of man.

    There are no physical signs. We are looking for HIM; for the APPEARING of Jesus in the clouds and LISTENING for that TRUMPET blast, the SHOUT and the cry of COMMAND. PLUS!!! keeping a very close eye on the written Word, being careful not to be deceived by false teachers as that will result in suffering a loss of rewards at the Bema.

    Since WW1. the signs, or ‘birth-pangs’ for the approaching Tribulation are now being viewed which obviously means the Rapture cannot be delayed for much longer. Imminency is not affected by these signs because they aren’t meant FOR the Rapture.


    There are very few Scriptures given about the Rapture for the simple fact that it, like the Church is a ‘Mystery’. Imagine your own family situation if you were suddenly removed from the earth minus any visible evidence of what had happened other than your earthly clothing in a pile where you had stood; they are not clean enough to enter heaven. You will be wearing a robe of Righteousness.

    Your remaining family and friends would be in uproar. Had you been driving a car at your snatch, what do you think would happen to the car and its occupants? Same thing if an airline pilot and his co-pilot were suddenly gone, the plane would keep flying until it crashed. The same with all forms of transportation.

    If a surgeon and his colleagues were suddenly taken mid operation – my goodness me, what a shock for the patient. What a shock for the surgeon who is left and his patient suddenly removed.

    Frankly Rodney, it is down to good old fashioned common sense that there would be world-wide panic. Peeps DEMANDING answers.

    The Rapture is a ‘mystery’ NOT a secret.

    I shall have to return later with my other rebuttals IF we are still here! 🙂

  • Rodney said "I want to make it clear, I am not standing in opposition to biblical truth, I am seeking to reveal that what is commonly taught today is not biblical truth but fables!

    In your determined efforts to find contradictions of Biblical truth in what is commonly taught today; sadly you are producing many home grown fables at the expense of the Truth.

    These are bringing confusion and depression to readers. No rewards given for that, just more fuel for the judgment fire and the suffering of loss. 🙁

  • Anon, Yes indeed God deals with the Church and His People separately. The Jewish People are already gathered back to their Nation, and there are plenty of Born Again Jewish Believers living there right now! Once the Church is called Home, Gods full attention is back with His Beloved First Born.
    God will restore His Covenant with His People right before the beginning of the Trib as is very clear in Ezekiel 39. A "Nation" as you say, are “blind”, but the Nation of Israel consists of people, and as said there already are Jewish Believers in Christ living in the Nation of Israel. To say that the "nation" of Israel is “blind”, is incorrect, and the Nation of Israel is not 100 percent Jewish.
    Forgive me, but this way of thinking is borderline replacement theology. God is a Loving Father, and as such, His First Born He has and will not forget or dismiss. Paul tells us in Romans 1:16 "to the Jew first".
    God in His Mercy, and Grace, brings the 144k Sealed Believers to Witness during the Trib. There will indeed be Jewish People, in Israel, that will become Believers during the Trib. It is those Remnant Believers that Jesus is speaking to in Matt.24 (He is also with a duality speaking to the Church to know the “season” with signs). They will flee at mid Trib, and be protected by God Himself for 3 1/2 years.
    It is Jesus Himself that personally comes to rescue them at the end of the Trib.
    Isaiah 63:1
    1. Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, traveling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

    They will know, Jesus is the Messiah, they are NOT blinded to Him, as Jesus Himself tells us how they will greet Him.
    Matthew 23:39
    39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
    Luke 13:35
    35Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    Gods Beloved First Born, have Prayed this Prayer for centuries.
    Psalm 118:26
    26.Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

  • Rodney said…
    “…To say that the Apostles held an expectation that the Lord would return in their day, what is it then that Christ told Peter in John 21:18,19? Did he not identify that Peter would grow old and by martyred? …”

    I have lost count how many times I have had to dispel this Postie myth about poor old Peter based on John 21:18,19. “Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish."

    Gēraskō – to gow old; i.e. forward in time from being younger to being older. It is tradition that paints Peter as a decrepit old man of very advanced years. It takes a nano-second of life to be ‘older’;I do it all the time. 😉

    This is another Postie relic started by Pastor Oswald Smith of Toronto in a ‘flight’ from Pretrib on the feeble basis of the deaths of Peter, Paul and ‘many’ other events’ that had to happen before the Rapture could could happen. He shouldn’t have flown so soon, as a plain reading reveals just some of the very obvious.
    Jesus was making a comparison between being younger and being older.

    “Peter must have been bewildered by Christ’s Word’s to him. Jesus had just spoken of the future ministry of Peter; now He spoke of Peter’s death. When Peter was YOUNGER, he walked where he wished, moving about without restriction. When Peter became old-ER he would stretch out his hands, looking for help. ANOTHER will gird you means Peter would be bound as a condemned criminal. The day would come when Peter would be totally under the control of Roman executioners who would CARRY him where he would not wish to go, to death vs.19. His death was hinted at in 2 Peter 1:13,14.” (NKJ Study Bible)

    Don’t forget we know these things from the advantage of hindsight; the Disciples had no idea about the Church Mystery until AFTER she was born at Pentecost. That task was given primarily to Paul, and he was, as yet, just their enemy.

    Postie, Robert Cameron is the leading spokesman against imminency. His first ‘proof’ against imminency is that Christ promised the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, which seems to indicate that a period of time must occur between Christ’s departure and His return, and an ‘imminent return would make the coming of the Spirit “a fool’s errand”.

    ‘What nonsense’ says EI. Isn’t it painfully obvious that NOTHING can happen to ANYTHING before it exists!

    BEFORE the Church could be born, Jesus had to be crucified, dead and buried, resurrected from the dead and ascended to heaven in order for the birth of the Church to be possible.

    Acts 1:4,8 is just before the Ascension in vs 9. It is obvious from vs 7 that they had no idea about the coming Church which was to be born in 10 days time. This is but a brief interval and has no effect upon imminency whatsoever.

    “When Jesus returns, it will be FOR the Church, and the Church was not instituted until the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost in Acts 2.

    IMMINENCY means 'pending'. The ripe apple will fall from the tree at any moment. It WILL happen, but we don't know the time. Imminency does not mean immediate; immediate is timed as NOW. Imminency is not timed.

    The Paul fiasco will follow later; God willing.

  • Rodney said “… until the fulness of the Gentiles become in"-Romans 11:25…”

    Yes, the Church will be completed when the fullness of the Gentiles is ‘full’; but this makes no difference to imminency because that event isn’t timed either.
    This ‘time’ could have been fulfilled centuries ago, but obviously hasn’t been as the Church is still on earth.

    You are equating the fullness of the Gentiles with the Restoration of Israel. Anonymous has put Israel’s situation, so I don’t need to repeat it. Other than to emphasise that Paul is quoting Isiah 46 that there is always a remnant but the Nation of Israel will not come to national repentance until they look upon Him whom they pierced, after they have specifically asked Yeshua to return.

    Throughout the 70th Week, individual Jews will come to faith such as the 144,000 who are actually IN the 70th Week because of their original unbelief!

    Yeshua said in Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
    35"See! Your house is left to you desolate; and assuredly, I say to you, YOU SHALL NOT SEE ME UNTIL the time comes when you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "

    Zechariah 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; THEN THEY WILL LOOK ON ME WHOM THEY PIERCED. Yes, they will MOURN for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."

    This mourning comes from the newly redeemed national Israel at the end of the 70th Week when Yeshua returns in answer to their plea in Luke13:35.

    For the life of me Rodney, I cannot understand why you are so dismissive of fellow Jews who are so well versed in Scripture and language; men such as A. Frucht whoM I have met on two occasions in England. A truly remarkable teacher much akin (in my imagination) to Rabbi Paul and a really down to earth chap; a real gent! Doing a study with him via camp Shoshanah of Ariel Ministries, or on the internet, would set you up a treat. The basics ‘Come and Hear’ are free of charge.

    Rodney the fact that you are a Jew explains much to me. Other Jews such as David Hocking and Jacob Prasch have said how Jews all love a good argument because they are (according to Scripture) ‘stiff-necked’! Perhaps my own small portion of Jewish blood (that I am proud of) makes itself known this way in me? Someone dear to me has called me ‘bull-headed’. 😉 My own desire to see all Jews saved is also a deep longing. If they are indeed all like our Rodders; I could wring their necks while kissing them better!


  • Rodney
    Statements of Paul’s that some see as a barrier against imminency.

    That the Apostle Paul did not, and could not, expect Christ to return in his lifetime.

    Three major objections based upon 1Tim.4:1-3;2 Tim 3:1-5 includes:
    a.Latter times – departure from the faith.
    b.Last days – perilous times shall come.
    c.Having a form of godliness but denying the power.

    1) Although these signs can NOW be seen to be typical of the end of the age; this list of sins is universally true. Believers of EVERY generation have applied these verses to the days in which they lived. They did not see the prophecy as yet awaiting fulfilment before Jesus could return.

    Apostasy set in at the beginning of the Church. Gal.1:6; 3:1; 4:11; Acts 15:1.
    While Paul’s predictions do indicate a final apostasy; Scripture does not say that the consummation of apostasy needs to occur BEFORE the Rapture. 2 Thess 2:3 speaks of a ‘falling away’ as well as the revealing of the man of sin; however it is the Tribulation that is in view here, NOT the Church age. THE apostasy is timed during the 70th Week.

    2) The second objection is that Paul was promised a long career as an Apostle in far off lands, going before Gentiles, kings and the children of Israel. Acts9:15. The answer to this is that Paul served the Lord in the spirit of exhortation of ‘occupy til I come’ Luke 19:13. All of Paul’s plans were contingent of the Lord’s leading and further revelation of God’s will for his life. His promise to return to the Ephesians was ‘I will return again to you IF GOD WILLS Acts 18:21. To the Romans 1:9.10,13; it was the same ‘by the WILL OF GOD –‘ He had good intentions to see them shortly ‘IF THE LORD WILL’ 1Cor.4:19.
    Paul served hard and well at his occupation. He had good intentions to go here or there IF God so willed because Paul could never be certain that his life would take this, or that, course. If Jesus has returned earlier, the N.T would have been much thinner book.

    Paul may not have expressed the term ‘imminent’; but his occupation in life showed that he kept at it with the attitude of keep working UNTIL Jesus came – whenever that was.? He had a job to do, and past regrets may have been driving him, but he kept at his job until…

    3) The third part of the argument; Paul was given ‘length of years’; so how can Christ have come in Pauls’ lifetime. However, reality bites, that Paul reached the Gentiles very quickly. Acts 16. Paul had already been to Macedonia. .Taking the gospel to the uttermost parts was rapidly accomplished in Col.1:6,23.

    As to the length of his life, Paul testified in 1Cor15:30 ‘Why stand we in jeopardy every hour’.
    As one reads these following verses in 2 Corinthians 11:23-28, he can scarcely conclude that Paul enjoyed great assurance of a long and healthy life. Pauls purpose was not necessarily to live, but merely to magnify Christ Jesus, the Lord in his body ‘whether it be by life, or by death’ Phil1:20,21. What mattered to Paul was not long life, but doing the will of God; and that very attitude enabled him to live and serve in the hope of an imminent return of Christ.

    In addition to these major objections to an early belief in the imminency of Christ’s appearing, one or two other trifling objections are brought forward, such as the promised destruction of Jerusalem. Luke 21:20-24. records this prediction of Christ, and it is argued that here was another known and clearly prophesied event which separated early Christians from any hope of being in the rapture. When, however, it is noted that the time of this destruction was not foretold – it might have come much earlier than 70 AD – and when it is realised that the destruction might have been part if the time of the time of trouble AFTER THE RAPTURE, this objection is robbed of all its force.

    Portions taken from 'Kept From the Hour' by Gerald Stanton.

  • Wow!!!!! Awesome info! Rodney… just fyi… we all love jews! Im in love with a jew i have never set eyes on!!! Haha 🙂 🙂 people who r anti jew are hardly christian as far as my opinion goes. However it doesnt change the fact that they have rejecd God over and over.. but who hasnt? U know? We cant pretend to know what it was like for all those people back then……… but i believe i have been grafted in! A jew by adoption! Crying abba Father!!! Love it!

  • When Christ was in the Garden of Gethsemane, how many times did the Lord request his Apostles to watch with him just prior to his arrest?
    What is the significance of 3 days, both for Jonah in the belly of a whale and Christ in the belly of the earth? What is the significance for Israel as recorded by the Prophet Hosea, "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight"-Hosea 6:2.

    It is not hard to distinguish the meaning of Hosea, for 2,000 years was Israel scattered, yet upon the third day were they again gathered as promised in the Land of their father's, yet the Lord will also dwell with them! What of the Church? Are we not the Body of Christ? If the Lord then was resurrected upon the morning of the Third Day, will we not also share in this resurrection? Why is this so hard for so many to understand?

    "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night"-Psalm 90:4. Conider also Mathew 26:38,41. "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"-2 Peter 3:8. If this will not serve to convince anyone, it would appear their is nothing more that I could possibly offer!

  • E.I., regarding John 21:18,19 in which you deny that Christ identified that Peter would grow old and be martyred. Yet my Bible identifies with this clearly, perhaps it is the version you are using that does not provide clarity? I do not know how anyone can deny this, it is pretty cut and dry! It would have also been of great assistance is you included verse 19 within your quotation, "This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me". I believe this was further indication of what manner in which Peter would be killed, identifying with crucifixion.

  • It is becoming rather obvious to me that regardless if I provide a mountain of evidence to support my interpretation of scripture in relation to the Rapture and several other prophesied events, that none will even consider the possibility! I do not expect any one to blindly follow anything I have said, yet at least personally examine it in relation to the scriptures, not just reply with quotes of authors or scholars who shaped your personal viewpoint! I have not allowed any author or scholar to establish my personal viewpoint, this viewpoint I hold, is established by the scriptures alone, not by preconceived notions or denominational leanings. I am really not a mean guy, just happen to love the Word of God and sharing what I believe it says to me!

  • Rodney, just a comment from lil ol me….. i feel that peter and the rest… preached and wrote scripture as inspired by the Holy Spirit.. my point being… that God is warning us…. the reader….. that his coming is to be looked for imminently…… regardless of if He (JESUS) foretold of peters death as being in the distant future of his life or not. The message of imminence is to us thru the word. Thats just my thought:) im not tryin to upset anyone…. just trying to understand it all myself u no!!! God Bless!!

  • Rodney said…
    "It is becoming rather obvious to me that regardless if I provide a mountain of evidence to support my interpretation of scripture in relation to the Rapture and several other prophesied events, that none will even consider the possibility!"

    That’s because your mountain of evidence is based upon a faulty interpretation. I have told you this repeatedly, and you make this same statement repeatedly. You are using Covenant Theology’s Allegorical method beloved of Posties AND Hyper-Calvinism – that’s why you sound like them.

    Instead of looking grammatically and literally at the text, you keep bringing up Postie spiritualising as ‘evidence’ e.g. the three days, a thousand years is as one day – oh dear; that is so typical of C.T. allegorizing of the text.

    You say none will even consider the possibility. – but we HAVE considered it Rodney, and rejected it; binned it, scrapped and incinerated it for the Biblically given, Normal/literal/ grammatical/ historical hermeneutic used by the Prophets, Yeshua and the Apostles.

    If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense. I learned that from a Messianic Jewish Rabbi!

    Coming to this site where a literal hermeneutic is paramount; you will NEVER find your spiritualizing method of interpretation considered even remotely possible. I have trodden this pathway SO many times; it ALWAYS leads to frustration and failure.

    Dr. Reagan and Nathan understand this fact; and runs this site on it; then you come here, but you won’t accept it and are determined to make us revert to your “language” which is different to our “language”. We CANNOT communicate like this, it is doomed to failure. We aren’t changing – so to stay here, and make sense here; it is you who must change your hermeneutic.

    Not that there are two to choose from. There is only the original Literal where-in allegory has a place when used, defined and explained by God as an aid to His literature.

    A.Frucht does a thorough job on this problem in his book "Israelology'; heavy going, but great.

  • Rodney said "I have not allowed any author or scholar to establish my personal viewpoint, this viewpoint"

    Your 'viewpoint' is identical the 'worldview' of Covenant Theology/ Progressive Dispensationalism which is not 'progressive' but 'Reforming' and not 'Dispy' its 'C.T' !!! 🙁

    They have their eschatology horribly wrong, and so do you, for the same reasons as they.

    Rodney we are told to STUDY to show ourselves approved – and we have been given the correct hermeneutic to do just that. You are proud of your lack of investigative study so as a result you are going round in circles chasing your own tail to see what it tells you. Must add that you also have the classic sign of a Postie C.T. they also set up armies of straw-men arguments that have nothing whatsoever to do with the view of the opposition. You are very proficient in creating 'straw-men' Rodney.
    It is otherwise called a 'misrepresentation' of Literal adherants.

  • I did a little research on the definition of covenant theology… and some comparisons between its position on bible interpretations and dispensationalists….. i thought i would be considered the latter, but .. sue…. im curious… the one thing that i didnt agree with was that disp believe animal sacrifices resume in the milenium… whats up with that? And that c.t. …. all i have to say is… oh brother….

  • Zechariah 14 and the following verses from the major prophets tell about what the Millennial Temple will be like and the ceremonial sacrifices that will be held there. Scholars agree that since Jesus fulfilled the sacrifice needed for salvation, that the Feast of Tabernacles and animal sacrifices during that upcoming time will be for remembrance of what Jesus has done, rather like Communion.

    Isa. 2:2-3; 60:7,13; 66:19-21; 56:6-7
    Jer. 33:15-18; 31:31-34; 32:38-40; 33:6-13; 50:5
    Ez. 37:26-28;40:38-43; 42:13; 42:18-27; 45:15-25; 46:2-15; 46:20-24

  • Thanks nathan…. i looked up those scriptures and i see the point. .. i happily thought sacrifices were done away with, but obviously that was just ignorance on my part.

  • Anonymous said “…TWO Covenants…!!!

    Oops, I have only just woken up to this.

    Absolutely not my friend; God made the New Covenant with Israel ONLY in Jeremiah 31:31 for a Land, a Seed and a Promise.

    God has made no covenant with the Church. The New Covenant in His Blood was ratified at the cross and will be inaugurated during the 1000 year Messianic rule on earth.

    The Church is not a physical nation as Israel is. She has not been promised a land on planet earth like Israel has (Greater Israel) nor has she been promised a ‘seed’ (David’s)like Israel has. These belong solely to a restored, physical national Israel on planet earth. In the meantime, the Church SHARES with Israel the Promises such as the fruit and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Church is a spiritual man IN Christ and a citizen of Heaven, not earth.

    Sorry but it is a vital point! 🙂

  • Hello Susie

    'Oh brother' – that's about right! 🙂

    I had it explained to me this way. The O.T. sacrifices were looking forward in expectation of the cross. The Mill. sacrifices are looking back in thanksgiving for the cross. (OK Nathan?)

    It was a bit of a shock to me when I first realise there is still animal and human death in the Mill! God is still working out His promises to Israel. It isn't until the end of the Mill. when Eternity starts that there is no more death. :O

  • O… thanks for explaining that last part. I couldnt figure out why He would have sacrifices continue but it makes sense that He is still working things out with Israel and that only AFTER the mil there will be no more death. U no….. i have learned almost everything i know thru the Holy Spirit thru scripture study also… not in any church…. my point being, that c.t. makes absolutely no sense to me.. spiritual israel!??!?? Huh????? Eeeeek that seems like dangerous twisting of Gods Holy Word. Not good! Also….. just a little side note, it kinda reminds me of how mormons think God made an oops in scriptur and had to reveal the corrections to joseph smith! ! Right!!! 🙂
    How r u feeling sue?

  • Hello Rodney

    I have been trying really hard to cover all the points you made that are Scripturally inaccurate from a Literal/Normal interp.

    There is one element that I have been asked not to comment on in the past, because of the repercussions it can bring. I think it is ok for me to say this much.

    Bad behaviour in a person is NOT EVIDENCE that a person who put their trust in Jesus to save them earlier on in their life, are no longer or ever were 'genuinely' saved. i.e we remain saved.

    In the same way that a person who does have impeccable behaviour is NOT EVIDENCE that person is, or ever was saved.

    As far as God’s free Grace alone, through Faith alone, is concerned, those notions are the result of ‘another gospel and another Jesus’ called ‘works salvation’.
    As I see this strongly suggested in certain of your comments; I must let these pass me by.


  • Hello Rodney – last time for now.

    No teacher is responsible for what I claim for Peter’s age, or lack of it. I have arrived at that conclusion all by myself, so any fault lies with me, and yes I may be wrong. I agree with Susie that it makes not a jot of difference to imminency which means pending, not immediate. This too is yet another argument put against imminency by C.T. Postie (Cameron, I believe?)

    Out of interest. We do know Peter died under Nero; so ‘old’ Peter was roughly 50 years of age when he died, no later than 68 AD which was the year of Nero’s suicide. Not much older than any present day middle-aged man from what I have read. Yet 'old' for the harsh lifestyle and climate of those times.

    God bless you Rodders old chap; I know you love Yeshua. 🙂

  • How am I feeling Susie?

    Well, I just sort of put out my hands and gently touch. ;D

    God bless you and take mega care – no more 'flare-ups' mind! 🙂

    MARANATHA! like NOW!

  • Well, I.E., I certainly don't agree with you about the New Covenant only being for the the 1000-year reign and only for Israel. The Old was for Israel, and we get the New NOW (try studying Hebrews)!!

    Wow! So this is why some people here seem to be living in the O.T. If you don't believe the New is for you, then ALL you have left is the old.

    Tell me, I.E., when does a "testament" or "covenant" (same thing) become effective? At a person's death, right? So the New Covenant came into effect at Jesus' death–just as He promised at the Last Supper.

    This has two implications: 1) The most obvious being that believers today are enjoying the New Covenant, and 2) that the New Covenant does not start with Matthew 1:1, but rather with the death of Jesus–meaning that much of Jesus' teachings were law-based because the New had not yet begun!

    And how do you reach people under the Law–you make the Law so impossible that they GIVE UP, which is exactly what Jesus often did (the Sermon on the Mount, for example). Then when they lost all hope in the Law, TADAH! Jesus offered Himself as the only Way!!

  • E.I., thanks again for your opinion, I can always count on you to respond to any of my posts and the results will always be the same, you are never wrong! Perhaps you are much older than you let on, I am almost certain you must have been the chief scribe for all the scriptures that we now recognize as the Canon. We are so fortunate to have such a prestigious scholar in our presence!

    Not only are you an accomplished scribe and scholar, you also maintain a schoolmarm persona, talking down to individuals as if they were beneath your ilk! Of course you also will accuse me of the same, yet if only I could reach your acclaimed status. With such a knowledgeable individual such as yourself, there should be no question in regards to any interpretation of scripture, only yours is the truth.

    There is no discussing scripture here, there is only, this scholar said this, that scholar said that, if you can not win by copying and pasting articles that support your viewpoint, then you hide behind Lamb and Lion Staff members. Seems to me you are not very confident in your own eschatological delusions E.I.! So then forgive me if I chose to take your opinion of me personally, your advice on interpreting scripture, as well as your attempts to scold me as if I were a child and flush them down the porcelain highway!

    That was the best Christian response I could muster and no I am not angry, just tired of the repetition, I already know what to expect from you E.I., yet you are in good company! Everyone is right, never wrong, it is inconceivable to even suggest the possibility of error. I realize now, that if my view does not follow the Dr. Reagan, Nathan Jones, Bill Salus, or Arnold Fruchtenbaum line of eschatological hypothesis, my response of opinion is already muted! I hope I have helped someone here on this forum, if not it sure was a giant waste of time!

  • Rodney u r rude and incourageable.. we r here to learn and discuss exciting events that celebrate.our christianity and excitement for our Lords return. Quite frankly, u repel me. If i were in the fence… which im not.. and all on my own im not…. ur demeanor would make me RUN the other way.

    Nathan … do we really have to continue with this mans rude and out of line behaviir cuz frankly im offended and he is ruining any fun experience i have so much come to enjoy here ….. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

  • Hello Rodney

    I do apologise if my sounding like a school Marm offends you. At school, we always think our lessons are trite and the teacher is an old idiot – what do we need to know THAT for; kids are so confident in their ignorance of life.

    You may not like what I have written, it may well be beneath you, but you know Rodney, the truth is very often painful and I have shared with you what I KNOW to be true all by my self; and these teachers supplied by The Holy Spirit have confirmed my lonely learning and added MUCH, MUCH more than I could have managed alone with no tuition.

    You are on a bus Rodney, on the most important journey of your life, and the route the bus is taking is called Covenant Theology Detour. Wrapped up in C.T. is the Emerging apostate harlot church, and you will emerge from the bus a great distance from the desired destination. Such a loss at the Bema that is so unnecessary, but then pride, always goes before destruction,

    Now young fella me lad, where is the courtesy you so rightly demanded of me? Putting aside my barbed sarcasm, I have since written to you as respectfully as I possibly can, simply because I really thought you desired the Truth. Not MY Truth Rodney, God's own truth revealed through the correct manner of interpretation which is nothing like touchy, feely Covenant Theology.

    Frankly Rodney, the ONLY reason I feel compelled to respond to your aberrant views, is an attempt to make sure onlookers are not confused by your many departures from reality. As long as I am able, and God willing, I shall continue to do what I can to aid L&L in putting the truth out there and correcting error of all varieties. I stand willingly to be corrected by the Pastor here, Nathan Jones, as well as Dr. Reagan and my fellow bloggers who know better than I do.

    Just to add, I know exactly what you want Rodney, you poor old thing; you want me and everyone you have contact with to ditch all our understanding on eschatology and follow your views instead! As Laura is apt to remark ‘good luck with that' because if 'luck' is all you have to offer, then y'all are heading for a clanger. (sarcasm intended).

  • Laura said “Well, I.E., I certainly don't agree with you about the New Covenant only being for the the 1000-year reign and only for Israel. The Old was for Israel, and we get the New NOW (try studying Hebrews)!!…”

    The New Covenant was made with Israel in Jer.31:31 and is an ETERNAL Covenant, not just for 1000 yrs (that’s your addition to my comment.) The Church benefits by faith. We are sharers in only the blessings (not ‘over-takers).

    The New Covenant was RATIFIED on the cross; it awaits the return of the King to start His Kingdom during the Mill. No King, no Kingdom! Presently He is seated at the right hand of the Father in Session and as our intercessor.

    He awaits the Father’s good pleasure to GIVE him the THRONE OF DAVID, which is an earthly, physical throne! Before Jesus can rule as King in the Kingdom, which IS the 1000yrs, He first has to take back the rights from Satan when he opens the Seal judgments.

    Yes Laura, studying Hebrews has been of great benefit to my understanding of all things Hebrew!

  • Laura said “Wow! So this is why some people here seem to be living in the O.T. If you don't believe the New is for you, then ALL you have left is the old”.

    Laura, in your comment, you have produced numerous ‘straw-men’ based upon what you ‘think’ I said and then proceeded to knock them down as if correcting my comment!

    I don’t have the energy to explain it all to you. All I can say simply is National Israel rejected their Messiah of the N.C. which had no conditions except to believe (like the Abrahamic) and in doing so, gave Gentiles the opportunity to partake by Grace through Faith, with those Jews who DID, as individuals, accept Jesus as their Saviour. Only ONE covenant has been made Laura, not two.

    Sorry to be a bore, but Ariel Ministries covers all of this on their web site.
    The O.C. was made with conditions attached between God and Israel. Israel broke their side of it before Moses descended the mount. The Mosaic Law is done away with and is now fulfilled in Christ.

    Please excuse me Nathan if you have covered this issue here. If you do have an article, would you be so kind as to fish it out please. Thank you.

    God bless.

  • Hi sue…. as usual u proceed graciously……
    I was reading about israel burning the weapons for fuel……….. what does that mean? Sorry to sound dingy but i dont get it!! My hair is soooo blonde!! 🙂

  • Hello Susie – or should I say "Oi! Blondie" 🙂

    When the Gog Magog war is over, instead of having to cut down trees for fire-wood for cooking and to keep warm, the Jews will burn the enemies weaponry instead, and it will take 7 years to burn it all. Lots of debate on this one.

    Some think that from modern warfare, they will be burning oil from the tank engines etc. Others say it will be atomic fuel rods. Then there is the Dutch product Lingostone (sp?) that is a sort of laminate that is very tough, like steel but can burn on a fire. It is wondered if Russian armaments will be made from this composite; so when the armies are destroyed, all their kit will be scattered all across Israel, and the Jews will burn this for their fuel supplies.

    OR – my personal favourite, is that for some reason, perhaps an EMP attack, that will knock out computers and all things electrical, so the soldiers will fight with old fashioned weapons using wooden chariots pulled by horses (lots of horses) spears, swords… and these will be caked in blood and the birds will eat the flesh AND the bloodied wooden chariots. (yea, I know, gross!)

    The thing to remember is it will take 7 months to mark and bury all the bodies, and 7 years to burn the weapons!

    Hmm! So does that make you wonder about anything?


  • Sue.. thank u for the explanation…. that helps alot……… i think im getting it…. they will be burning for fuel during the trib then?
    I was just reading psalm 83 trying to understand it. Nathan has a real interesting and informative article on the gog magog war in his post (todays or yesterdays)….. o yea and i agree GROSS!! HAHAHAHA yikes !!!# maranatha Lord!!!!!

  • Well done that Blonde 😉

    "…they will be burning for fuel during the trib then?…"

    The Israel Jews, will be running and hiding away from Jerusalem and Israel, chased by the Dragon from the midst of the Week to safety in (Petra?). That is to say, there will be no collecting going on for the last half of the 7 yrs of fuel collection? So it seems likely that the Ezek war will begin no more than 3 1/2 yrs before the 70th Week begins? If you can see what I mean?

    I think Nathan is probably right, there will be a gap between the Rapture and the start of the 70th Week. Much like the 50 day gap between The Cross, suspending Israel in God's plans; and the birth of the Church at Pentecost. Or even the 10 days beween the Ascension and Pentecost. I'm not claiming 50 or 10 days, just an unknown interim of a minimum of perhaps 3 1/2 years?

    Did you know Psalm 83 is linked with Isaiah 17 and the destruction of Damascus? (BIG trouble there today) Most think this happens first THEN comes Ezek.

    Where's Billy got to, I miss him. DrNofog, rg, Gideon, others – where is y'all????

  • Grandma lifts her arms and shouts "O Praise The Lord – Maranatha!"

    Grandson looks surprised and asks "whose Mary n Arthur"?


  • O those babes!!!! Hahahahaha that is soo cute!
    I will read isaiah 17 today too and im sure ol blondie will be chock fullo' inquiries after!!!! What fun! Everyone in my life thinks im an obsessed fool for being so excited for the rapture but i cant help it! It makes my spirit leap in anticipation and i just hug my bible and cry in my joyful solitude:):)

    U go granny accross the pond!! 😉

  • Susie and Nathan

    Many thanks Susie for the prompt to read Nathan’s fandabidido Timing of Magog Article.

    Aciemundo, EI’s WELL impressed. It’s nigh on a book; I have 24 full pages with my size 16 font requirements – and rising!
    Good shot Squire – nice one!

    See, I have had to revert to my schooldays to express my admiration.


  • E.I., thanks for the follow up, as usual, you never disappoint to elevate yourself to supreme status.
    Regardless of your opinion, I will continue to supply my personal view regarding the interpretation of prophetic events as they are presented in the scriptures. Covenant theology deems Israel redeemed without conversion, I no where identified with such a fable. The 144,000 will be preaching the same Gospel we preach today.

    Perhaps you should take the time to read my comments before your blinding hatred allows you to attack my position! Until that time you should refrain from commenting on them, lest you be proven to appear foolish. While your idiotic attacks have served to gather a following even to the point of agreeing with such ignorance does not persuade me to retract from my own views.

    Maybe someday we can have fellowship, yet fellowship requires reasoning together regarding the scriptures, yet clearly there is no reasoning with you, your preformatted understanding is not to be tampered with, lest your security blanket be removed and you return to sucking your thumb!

  • Rodney

    Its nice to know I haven’t disappointed you. I suppose that makes me the Mother Superior! 😉

    FYI there is Calvinisms C.T. and Arminianism C.T. and there is the latest so called ‘Progressive Dispensation’ All forms of C.T. variations which allegorise the text. Not many are pre-millennium; but there are a few who see Israel Redeemed the same way as everyone else. What you all share in common is the allegorising of eschatology. In particular the ‘Emerging Harlot Apostate church’ are adept at what you call your own ‘personal view’. They like to discuss their own opinion as they insist there is no objective Truth, contrary to the insistence of the Word that Jesus is The Truth – and we can know The Truth, and The Truth will set us free!

    C.T. in Emerging says Truth can never be known! Each Emergent contemplates their own feelings and experiences to decide what a Scripture means, it’s a paradigm shift in thinking.
    Through discussion, the meaning of a Scripture is derived from a consensus of opinion, NOT Biblical Doctrine: which they, in their ignorance deem as being able to drive people insane while citing 2Cor.3:6.

    My hatred for the misappropriation of God’s inerrant Word is not ‘blind’ Rodney. I hate error with my eyes wide open, but have nothing but pity on the depressing soul that spouts their own subjective opinion instead of the Words objective fact.

    The following links show where personal opinion is taking the Church today. Like I said Rodney; you are on the wrong bus called C.T. Hermeneutic.

    Know Your Enemy The Emergent church Part 74

    Part 75.

    Part 76

  • E.I. my beliefs in no way identify with any brand of Covenant Theology, that is only your delusional opinion. In all my comments I make it clear that Israel will be redeemed as is promised, be it the Two Witnesses, or the 144,000! My desire is to see that day, in which the natural branches are again restored to their rightful place.

    It is your belief that seeks to label Jew's during the Tribulation as being commited to sacrilege, with profane sacrifices and a profane Temple. This belief you hold is in direct contradiction to the truth of the scriptures. It is therefore your belief that without the Church the world is doomed, yet this is proven to be false as the Lord pours out his Spirit upon the house of Israel as identified in Joel 2:28,29 and Ezekiel 39:29.

    It is my belief that if the Lord did not first Rapture the dead in Christ, there would not be many to assemble in the clouds of heaven. This is why the statement "alive and remain" comes in, which means remain in the faith. We are presently embroiled in a time of apostasy stretching all over the globe, very few today abide in the faith having adopted fables. There is no comparison with the Church of the 1st Century and that of the Church today, Laodicea is present everywhere!

  • Covenant Theology is a method of interpretation of using allegory/spiritualising/personal opinions hermeneutic beloved of Rome, that is in opposition to the Biblical Literal/normal/grammatical/historical/context! context! context! hermeneutic. That isn't my opinion, it is a fact of literature which includes the Bible both Old and New Covenants.

    Allegorical use is obvious in the term 'it is my belief' it is your own personal theory instead of citing what Scripture actually presents literally. There isn't always a cut and dried answer, that doesn't mean we can invent one and expect it to accepted as logical.

    All I am trying to do is warn you that you are on a very slippery slope into serious apostasy. If I didn't care about you Rodney, I would ignore you and let you slide into oblivion. Your interpretation presents an exceedingly depressing attitude that I need like a hole in the head.

    It is now 2012. Consider making a new year resolution to find out about hermeneutics. I didn't look for it, it found me, it has been by the leading of the Holy Spirit that I have learned how essential it is to learn about THE TRUTH.

  • P.S.

    I could start a fire with this further pile of yet more straw-men arguments. You are arguing against your own notions imagining them to be mine = misrepresentations! It is a serious trait of C.T.

  • Interpret Grammatically, Historically and Critically

    Interpreting grammatically
    The historical-critical method assumes that words and expressions have a relatively stable meaning during given periods of history. Therefore, we begin by taking what we can determine as the normal, everyday meaning of the words, phrases, and sentences to the extent possible. In other words, our interpretation must correspond to the words and grammar in the text in a reasonable way.

    Otherwise, the interpreter could assign meaning of his own without objective control. The Bible would become a horoscope of vague sayings we try to plug into our lives however we are able.
    Most of the Bible can be easily interpreted by simply taking the language (either in the original or translation) in the usual way (Jn. 3:36; Acts 1:11).

    In other words, if the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense.

    A plain sense reading should not be confused with a literalistic interpretation. We should allow for figures of speech (Mk. 1:5; Lk. 22:19).

    If a passage contains symbols or a special literary genre this should be indicated in the text, either by textual cues, or because symbolism is required in order to make sense of the text. Most symbols are explained by the Bible itself (Rev. 1:9-20)

    Interpreting historically
    Historical interpretation means that we take into account the historical background of the author and the recipients as possible. The Bible was written to common people, and is understandable to anyone. However, it was written thousands of years ago to a different culture.

    Therefore, as modern readers, we have to try to recover a general sense of the meaning of words, phrases and concepts in the ancient cultures. These phrases are addressed in Scripture primarily to the Hebrew and Greco-Roman culture of the first century.

    We are not interested at first in the question, "What does it mean to me?" but rather, "what did it mean to those whom it was originally written?"
    Rev. 2:12,13 – Pergamum was the center of the worship of Aesclepius.
    I Cor. 11:4-6 – Shorn hair was typical of Aphrodite priestess-prostitutes; shaven heads were typical of convicted adulteresses (vs. 5).
    Use Bible dictionaries or other sources to discover customs, money, geography, etc. Then find a corresponding meaning in our culture.
    Good Samaritan (Lk. 10); 2 Denarii (Mk. 6:37); 50,000 Drachma (Acts 19:19)
    Pharisees' teaching on the relationship between illness and sin (Mark 2; John 9:1)
    Interpret Critically
    Your interpretation must make rational sense. If interpretation is permitted to contradict, there in no reason for hermeneutics since we may make a passage say whatever we want.


  • Cont.


    These rules will enable you to arrive at a critically sound interpretation. Some of these rules are the outgrowth of a high view of scripture. In other words, the entire Bible is the product of one author (God) at the same time that it is product of many authors. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to seek to find a consistent message throughout the Bible.

    Interpret in light of the context of the passage. Follow the thought development in the book you are reading, and make sure your interpretation flows along with the general direction of argument. Sudden changes in subject are unusual. If you have the thought development of a book centering on one subject, suddenly switching to another, and then back to the first, your interpretation is almost certainly wrong.

    Consider the larger context as well: which Testament? which author? what time period? Never view a passage in isolation from its surroundings. The context should be considered the most important kind of evidence in the interpretation of a passage. Usually context supplies all we need to know. We should turn to other explanations only when we can find no critically feasible interpretation based on the English text in context. Anyone who claims to see a break in context bears the full burden of proof.

    Mt. 16:28 – Referring to the transfiguration (in context of passage)
    I Cor. 14:34 – Means to disrupt (see I Cor. 11:5 – context of book and passage)
    I Cor. 3:17 (thought development of the passage limits interpretation)
    Interpret in light of progressive revelation(Heb. 1:1,2). While God's purpose for man has never changed, His strategy in accomplishing that purpose has changed. He has dealt with man under different "covenants," or programs. Therefore, it is important to ask "Under which program was this written?." Primary application of the passage will be to the people operating under that program, but not necessarily to others. There may be secondary applications for other programs based on principles which have universal application. Note special problems here in connection with the ministry of Christ before the cross.

    Polygamy was permitted in the Old Testament, but taught against in the New Testament (I Tim. 3:2)
    Theocracy was commanded in Old Testament, but secular government is affirmed in the New Testament. (Rom. 13:1-7; Mt. 22:21; IIChron. 7:14)

    Animal sacrifices, dietary laws, Sabbaths, holy days, festivals, priests and liturgy have all been fulfilled in Christ and are thus obsolete (Col. 2:16,17; Heb. 8).
    Mal. 3:7-12 – in context of the testament (see Num. 18:21-24; Deut. 14:22-29)


  • Cont.

    Interpret scripture in harmony with other scripture Since the Bible is inspired by God, it does not contradict itself. Therefore, never interpret scripture in such a way that it clearly contradicts other scriptures. First discover the allowable range of meaning for a passage, then choose the interpretation that doesn't contradict other scriptures.

    Acts 2:38 could either be referring to baptismal regeneration, or simply adding baptism as a desirable adjunct to the minimum requirement for salvation (i.e. faith).

    Jas. 2:14-26 "justify" can also mean "justify before men."
    Interpret the unclear in light of the clear. Scripture teaches every major, essential truth clearly and many times. Never build a doctrine on an unclear passage.

    Lk. 16:9 is used by Roman Catholics to support indulgences.
    I Cor. 15:29 mentions an obscure, unknown practice used in Corinth. Today the Mormon church uses this passage to elevate dead ancestors to a higher status in the afterlife.

    I John 5:16 The sin unto death is never defined. Don't base a doctrine of falling away on such a passage.
    Interpret the "spirit" of the passage, not necessarily the "letter", or the literalistic meaning, especially when the text is a literary genre prone to figures of speech or colorful statements.

    Proverbs 22:6 The book of Proverbs contains many general maxims, but not all are absolute promises. Not every child will go right, but most will.
    Proverbs 15:1 Not every gentle word will turn away wrath, but in most cases it will.

    I Cor. 11:1-18 – In some New Testament passages interpretation by the "letter" contradicts the "spirit" of the passage (c.f. I Cor. 10:32,33).
    Interpret with dependence upon the Holy Spirit, allowing Him to teach you. Mark T or F.

    – Proverbs 3:5 "Lean not unto your own understanding" means we should avoid approaching the Bible on a primarily analytical level.
    – Since the Bible is "living and active", the interpretation of a passage may be different for different people.

    Unless we approach God's word with a deep reverence for God and a passion to know His will for our lives, we may often get the wrong interpretation.
    If the rules of interpretation give one answer and the Holy Spirit shows another, we should choose the latter.

    We should pray before studying that God will enable us to understand the passage.

  • Rodney please look at how Scripture should be interpreter;

    I found this quickly so I hope it is kosher. I learned through AFrucht but I am fairly sure L&L has a study on this.

  • E.I., it appears you are closer to the emergent style then you know! You claim my version of interpretation is too depressing for you, that you need more positive reinforcement. That sounds very familiar now doesn't it!

  • Rodney why are you so quick to reject an offer of help; and with such spite?

    This is what depresses me Rodney; a man with a brain geared up to understand language but you prefer to go by your own 'beliefs and feelings'. These are transitory; always changing with every experience and never will they arrive at the God given Truth. That’s called eisegesis, putting your own opinions into the text.

    God is the author of language consisting of the laws of grammar. By ignoring really simple rules such as context, means we cannot hope to understand what God is saying to us through the text, HIS text, and its called exegesis; taking from God's Word what HE is telling US. What you are doing, along with the Pope, is putting into the text what you want it to say.

    C.T's allegorical interpretation of eschatology puts one's own thoughts, feelings, beliefs and experiences thus removing God's Word from the context where HE placed it = a pretext! in other words, a fable of human day-dreams.

    Rodney, I had forgotten every bit of grammar I was taught at school. I worked with my hands and couldn’t see the need. The Lord knew my desire to understand His Word, so he took me along a path that forced me to recognise how important grammar is. The devil knows this importance, which is why he has been busy dumbing down Western education.

    A couple of years ago, I had some money as a birthday gift and chose to buy A Fruchts new book ‘Israelology’ about the missing ‘piece’ in Systematic Theology (Israel) So it’s a study about Israel placed systematically. It was beyond me, and it just sat on the shelf.

    Little did I know that The Lord had given me a tool I didn’t know I would need to help me realise a greater understanding of His Word. Blogging a Postie revealed my lack of education, and along with A.Fruchts advice in ‘Footsteps of the Messiah’ about Hermeneutics and the Golden Rule of ALL forms of literature from a Thesis down to a shopping list “…if the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense…” there’s much more to it than that, but before I could go any further in The Word, I HAD to get my interpretation in line with Scripture, which is what my post to you was all about. I chose that one at random, my own study books aren’t on line.

    Among tapes by the later Dr. Walter Martin on Hermeneutics, available at the Blue Bletter Bible site; I also have a reasonably priced copy of ‘Rightly Divided’ by Roy B Zuck; others are more expensive, one being by Paul Lee Tan.

    Now you enjoy scoffing our appreciation of God raised teachers such as Dr. Reagan. Let me tell you that every one of the teachings I turn to for clarification on difficult texts (to me) HAVE to fit the essential criteria of the correct, Biblically endorsed LITERAL/NORMAL method of interpretation. You complain that I don’t read your comments properly! Well a quick scan of your style quickly reveals C.T., and the ever so frequent use of the term ‘it is my belief’; so I know straight away you are voicing a personal opinion and not using God’s choice for our interpretation (Literal/Normal/ historical/ grammatical/ in context) so I know before I start to digest your theories that they are a waste of time and energy.

    As you are far too proud to accept a word of advice from a mere old woman you call an idiot, there’s not much that can be done to remedy your many, many errors as you are not only set on them, you are also extremely proud of them. I shall have to wish you ‘luck’ with that venture, because as sure as eggs is eggs, God will not bless you in this faulty escapade, He can’t, because you are evading The Truth.

    I don’t think I can bear this much longer; you are seriously the most depressing personality I have ever encountered. All I can add is a plea to you to wake up to yourself and learn the correct method of interpretation, then you will get at least half a chance to get things right.

  • E.I., thanks again for the advice, yet it is the Holy Spirit that instructs in the Word, not those holding doctorates in theology, that is why for me, your advice is like the chaff carried by the wind!
    If you like following men, then continue to do so, I however will continue to follow the direction of the Lord as the scriptures are revealed by his Spirit!

  • Excuse me; I don't ever follow men, it's not ladylike.

    The Holy Spirit instructs in the Word in accordance to the rules of interpretation HE lay down for the rest of us to follow. He calls it 'rightly dividing'.

    As for me, I left school at 14 without an exam to my name, and became a hairstylist then a wife and mother; all boring and mundane, thats me. So having a doctrate is not needed to know how to read God's Word as He taught us to do, which is Literally/normally, and not by adding or taking from it as and where it takes yer fancy. We aren't to do that, didn't you know? I'm sure I mentioned it a time or three – ah, but of course, all down the loo or blowing in the wind.

    I should like to be around and see your face when you are made to eat those words. Yuk! 😀

  • Rodney, are you sitting comfortably?

    Then I’ll begin…

    A businessman was on his way home after having a very successful, but rather stressful trip for his female employer. To pass the time away he took advantage of being a passenger and was intent upon reading a book out loud to help him to concentrate on a difficult passage.

    He was fully engrossed, but suddenly he became aware that a man was standing beside him, listening to his reading.
    The man asked ‘do you understand that’? The business man shook his head with a frown, and with not a little frustration replied “No, not a word. How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited the man, who introduced himself as Philip, to come up and sit with him. “What’s the problem”? Enquired Philip sympathetically. The business man pointed a long, brown finger, adorned with some really expensive looking rings, and jabbed at the open page making the jewels glint and sparkle in the sunlight.

    With a heavy sigh, the business man confided “It’s this bit here, and he began to read the strangely foreign words “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opens not his mouth. In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth."

    The business man looked up hopefully at his visitor saying “Now I ask you, about who does the prophet say this, about himself or someone else?” Philip smiled reassuringly saying “Ah yes, I know it well” and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus…

    Acts 8:26-39. Isaiah 53:7-8

    Notice it was the Holy Spirit Himself who directed Philip to help the Eunuch interpret the passage.

    “This desert dialogue points up two things. First, seeing the words on a page of the Bible does not necessarily mean that the reader catches their meaning. Observing what the Bible says is the first of several steps in Bible study. It is important to know what the text ACTUALLY states. But this may sometimes lead to questions on the meaning of what is read.

    Many people, on reading portions of the Bible, come away confused about their meaning – or – come away with a false understanding”.

    Roy B. Zuck “Rightly Divided” Readings in Biblical Hermeneutics.

  • 2 Timothy 2:15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

    Rightly Dividing – verb – orthotomeō
    Tense: Present – A simple statement of fact or reality; do it now.
    Voice: Active – the subject does this now.
    Mood: Participle – ‘ing’-‘ed’ subject do this right now.

    1) to cut straight, to cut straight ways
    a) to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right
    2) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly

    In other words there is a wrong way to do it and MUST be avoided right NOW.

  • E.I., just for one more moment I will humor you with a reply! Your brand of eschatology paints the picture that Israel will remain lost until the time in which they will look upon him as the crucified risen Lord at the Second Advent! This however is an erroneous conclusion when we consider the ministry of the 144,000 along with the Two Witnesses, the blindness in part of Israel will only remain until the fullness of the Gentiles come in at the expiration of the Church Age! This clearly identifies that it is your personal interpretation that is flawed, not mine! Your attempt to provoke me and have me removed from this forum has failed, I will from this point on refuse to address any of your comments directed to me simply because you refuse to acknowledge your own delusions of grandeur!

  • Thanks for humouring me here Rodders; I needed a good laugh!

    You do so love mixture Rodney. One pot cooking, chuck it all in together and give it a good stir and voila – a mess of pottage! Something God says He hates, and I can now see why! ALL C.T. interps MIX prophecies for the Church (Jew/Gentile) with prophecies for Israel at some point, and your 'point' is revealed above.

    INDIVIDUAL Jews will continue to be saved throughout the 70th Week by recognising that the Gentile Jesus is in fact the Jewish Messiah = born again Jews by faith alone!

    NOT! – get this now – NOT! by becoming members of the completed Church which has been Raptured, in the process of having their WORKS judged at the Bema, and wed in heaven who will return with Messiah to rescue National physical Israel,
    Survivors, of which, will go on to repopulate Israel during the 1000k.

    NATIONAL Israel (Jews only) As the nation of Israel “will remain lost until the time in which they will look upon him as the crucified risen Lord at the Second Advent!”
    Jesus plainly said that they (National Israel) will not see Him again UNTIL O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Matt.23:37-39)

    Which is when National Israel, in repentance, look upon Him whom they pierced, the TIMING of which is at the very end of the 70th Week when Jesus returns with His now married Bride.

    WHERE have I tried to have you removed from here Rodney? That's Nathan's choice, not mine.

    I can handle your sort with both hands tied behind my back chum – its an advantage of advancing years…AND, you are doing me a favour by keeping my mind off my REAL problems, its them that weigh me down, not the whinging of pipsqueaks.

    Any provoking comes as a result of your refusal to take ANY counsel whatsoever from Holy Spirit raised teachers. NO! I don't include myself; I am only a pupil intent to learn THE Truth. (Besides, I'm an idiot, as you like to remind me.)

    I DO think you are an ovebearing, conceited pain in the back-side; however,The Lord has ALWAYS used error to lead me further on into His Truth. Without your nasty provocation, I would be content to rest on my Laurel's. That would never drive me to know more of My Lord.


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