The Christ in Prophecy Journal

Prophecy Questions: Pre-Millennial Sanity

Prophecy Questions Panel


Why does the Pre-Millennial view make the most sense?

I have been holding Bible prophecy conferences for over 30 years and my favorite part of each conference is always the question and answer period where we give people in the audience an opportunity to ask any question they please. In this series I’m going to start throwing questions about Bible prophecy at my two guest experts — Gary Fisher of Lion of Judah Ministry and Dennis Pollock of Spirit of Grace Ministries. I know you will enjoy their very fascinating and informative responses.

The Pre-Millennial View

Dr. Reagan: You two hold to a view that is called the Pre-Tribulational, Pre-Millennial Viewpoint. This is the view that there will be a Rapture of the Church followed by a seven year Tribulation period. Jesus Christ will then come back at its end in victory and then reign with the Church for a thousand years. Why do you believe that? Dennis first.

Dennis Pollock: Yes, well, let me ask you this. Did you ever have a snow cone when you were a kid that you took the tip off and you sucked all the juice out of it?

Dr. Reagan: Oh, yes!

Dennis Pollock: It was great, wasn’t it? But, when you were done, what did you have left? You ended up with a bunch of flavorless ice that was essentially worthless. You had sucked the life out of that snow cone and it become worthless.

The idea that Christ can only come after all these Tribulation events have been fulfilled, the idea that there has to be a Tribulation first, that there has to be a Antichrist to rise up first, that there has to be the rebuilding of the Temple first, well what it does it puts people in a position to say when they wake up in the morning, “Jesus Christ could not possibly come today, because all of these things haven’t been fulfilled.” They’ve sucked the life out of the doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ, because Jesus said to watch for Him because He’s coming when we don’t expect Him. So, you’ve totally sapped this event from its vitality and life. The whole point of what Christ is giving us in terms of the doctrine of His return is be alert and be watchful, for He’s going to come and surprise you.

Dr. Reagan: Okay, Gary, give me a reason why you believe.

Gary Fisher: Mine was the same answer, but I would put it a little bit different than sucking the juice out of a snow cone, though. One of the things that I love to do at my conferences is talk to “Mr. Lostman.” I warn him, “You have so much going on in the world, and yet Jesus could come today. If that’s not true then I’m misrepresenting the Scripture.”

If you take the idea that Jesus can come today, then the Pre-Trib doctrine is gone. The only doctrine that can satisfy the idea that Jesus can come on any day is the Pre-Trib doctrine. It would disappear, because if Christ cannot come even today then there is no such thing as a Pre-Trib doctrine. The Pre-Trib doctrine demands that He can come at any day. If you place the Rapture in the Mid-Trib or Post-Trib view, then it could not happen today.

Dr. Reagan: That’s true. Jesus taught over and over the He may come any moment. That’s called imminency. That means He can come at any moment. And, if you believe that a whole bunch of things have to happen first, then there is no immanency. There would be no reason why you should say that Jesus may come today.

Gary Fisher: I want to talk to Mr. Lostman and say, “Get right today while there’s still time, because you don’t know what is going to happen tomorrow!” Jesus can come today. Without the Pre-Millennial, Pre-Tribulational viewpoint, you do not have that doctrine.

Dr. Reagan: That’s a very, very good point! I don’t know really how folks who disagree with imminency can get around that point since basically what they are claiming is Jesus is going to come at the end of the Tribulation. If that’s true, then do you know what? We should be watching for the Antichrist and not Jesus Christ.

Dennis Pollock: We should have our check-list out, and as soon as all our check boxes have checks in them we can then “allow” Jesus to come.

Dr. Reagan: Yes, because there will be the whole Great Tribulation happening. You’ve got to have the Temple rebuilt. You’ve got to have the persecution of the Jewish people, and on and on and on before Jesus Christ returns. But, the Bible says Jesus can return at any moment, and the only way that can happen is if you believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

When you look at the Rapture and compare it to the Second Coming the two are totally different anyway. In one Jesus appears, the other He comes to earth. In one He comes for His Church, the other He returns with His Church. So, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is the only way to really reconcile the Scriptures.

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Dr. David Reagan

Dr. David Reagan is the Founder and Evangelist Emeritus of Lamb & Lion Ministries. He is a life-long Bible student, teacher, and preacher and he led over 45 pilgrimages to Israel. Dr. Reagan was the host of the radio then television program Christ in Prophecy for nearly 40 years.

83 CommentsLeave a Comment

  • The Lord will only come as a thief to them that are the children of night and of darkness as 1 Thessalonians 5:4,5 clearly identifies. We are the children of light and of the day, and that day, or the day of our gathering will not overtake us as a thief. We are further instructed that when we begin to see the prophetic markers provided in regards to the approaching of the Time of Wrath or Time of Tribulation, we are to look up in expectation for our bodily redemption.

    It is no question that 1 Thessalonians 5 identifes with the Rapture of the Church, verse 9 and 10 clearly indicate that we are not appointed unto wrath but salvation and to dwell safely with the Lord. While I personally embrace a PreTrib position on the Rapture, I do not however embrace a Doctrine of Imminence. It is clear to me that the Rapture will occur at an appointed time that we also are to be aware of.

    The scriptures identify a transition in prophetic scope from the Church to Israel to fulfill all things. The Prophet Ezekiel identifies fully with this transition in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon Israel in Ezekiel 39:29 in the aftermath of the Gog/Magog battle. As I have indicated this many times of this forum, Israel must be prepared to take the mantle prior to our exit.

    The signs provided in Matthew 24 by the Lord were given as they requested to know the time of his (second) coming as King and the estabishment of the Kingdom. This was provided for a Jewish audience that would be alive during the Time of Jacob's Trouble. It is also clear at that particular junction that the Disciples did not yet understand the purpose and plan of the Lord as would be manifested in the Church, for the Holy Spirit had not yet been provided to them, that they might have understanding concerning this mystery. Though Pentecost was a partial fulfillment of this, the fullness of Joel 2:28,29 will occur upon Israel, I believe, simultaneously with our exit!

  • Can anyone give me specific verses related to the Church that identify with the Doctrine of Imminence, or that the Rapture can happen at any moment? I would be very interested to see these in proper context. There seems to be clear theological differences here not supported by scripture.

  • Hello Rodney

    For starters there is the much neglected Grammar.

    The Apostles were expecting the imminent return of Jesus in their lifetime, evidenced by the use of personal pronouns. They weren’t speaking of a future after their deaths.


    1Thess1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers *US* from the wrath to come.

    1Thess.4:15 For this *WE* say to you by the word of the Lord, that *WE* who are *ALIVE and REMAIN* until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

    Vs.17 Then *WE* who are *ALIVE and REMAIN* shall be caught up together with THEM in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    1Thess.5:6 Therefore let *US* not sleep, as others do, but let *US* *WATCH* and be sober.
    Watch, the verb ‘grēgoreō’ is in the present, not future tense, it is active and subjective.
    TENSE:The PRESENT tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense.
    VOICE: The ACTIVE voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action. (the Apostles personally are doing this watching.
    MOOD.The SUBJUNCTIVE mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. (imminency)

    Titus2:12,13 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, IN THIS PRESENT world LOOKING FOR that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    Present adverb- nyn – at this time, the present, now – something the Apostles were actively engaged in.
    Looking for – verb ‘prosdechomai’
    Tense: Present – as above.
    Voice: Middle or Passive Deponent – as the active above.
    Mood: Participle – like the English ‘ing’.
    The ‘glorious appearing’ here is ‘epiphaneia’ and is as relevant to Christ’s appearing at the Rapture when He appears, we shall be like Him as in 1John3:2; as much as His appearing at the 2nd Coming.

    Other views try to push this forward into the Trib as a hope for the 2nd Coming at the end; but the grammar is NOW and imminent, not future. It can only mean the without warning Rapture.

  • The latest installment of Debkafile, identifies the fact that no military action will be carried out on Iran. The U.S. Secretary of Defense has clearly called upon Israel to accept a nuclear armed Iran in order to not compromise the security of U.S. and N.A.T.O. personnel in the region or risk collapsing the already fragile economies of the U.S. and Europe.

    It is also clear that this carelessness will result in judgement by the hand of the Lord God. "And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD"-Ezekiel 39:6. The (isles) here refer to the same Western powers that perceived the danger as they witnessed the Gog/Magog alliance assemble and seek to invade Israel, yet refused to engage these enemies for the sake of their fictitious prosperity that is nothing but a heap of growing debt.

    The enemies of Israel both military and diplomatic will receive judgement by the Lord God, their faces will be filled with shame as their deception and complacency is revealed before the entire globe. It is certain that this time approaches as we see the U.S. and N.A.T.O. unwilling to address the growing threat posed by both Russia and Iran along with China. China recently identified that they would defend their Iranian interests even if it risked a Third World War.

  • Rodney
    Can't speak for the U.S. but the U.K. are dead agin a nuclear Iran and Tony Blair has said military action is likely. I don't think Debka is regarded as a reliable news source.

    The Rapture remains imminent.

  • If the Rapture of the Church could occur in the time of the Apostles then why did the Lord reveal to many of them that they would die as marytrs with the exception of John?

    "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods…After a long time the lord of those servant come, and reckoneth with them"-Matthew 25:14,19.

    "After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth"-Hosea 6:2,3. The former and latter rain refer to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon Israel. As it occured on Pentecost is will again occur as documented in Ezekiel 39:29 in complete fulfillment of Joel 2:28,29.

    The Apostle Peter understood this clearly as delivered here: "But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"-2 Peter 3:8. The context here identifies the fact that scoffers will come in the Last Days claiming "Where is the promise of his coming"? Obviously even the Apostles were aware that much time would pass before Christ would return.

    I continue to believe that the Doctrine of Imminence goes against the clear teaching of scripture, that as all prophetic events recorded within the pages of the Bible all had specific appointed times, the Rapture is not exception. The Lord has an expected harvest beginning with Israel and ending with Israel as even James 5:8 and several other scriptures clearly identify.

  • How can anyone dispute the fact of Ezekiel 39:29? "Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD". This occurs sometime in the aftermath of the Gog/Magog battle. If then the Spirit is to be poured out upon Israel, obviously the Church will have exited possibly simultaneously.

  • The "Doctrine of Imminence" in some cases was an oppurtunity for the clergy to install fear in their congregations as to provide more finances to spread the gospel, yet this occasion was used instead for personal gain. The Catholics had their doctrine of "Purgatory" to exploit their parishioners to build their luxurious cathedrals. The Protestants have the "Doctrine of Imminence" and the "Tithe".

  • The time of our gathering in the clouds of heaven with the Lord will not be a suprise to them that believe yet to those that are the children of darkness and the night for them the Lord will appear as a thief. That is why we are instructed to watch in all things, to know the expected time of our redemption.

  • Goodness me Rodney, I do hope you have taken a breath and composed yourself. What a jumble!!!

    I have made a mental note that Paul was either a liar or atrocious at Grammar – one would have thought The Lord would have mentioned it somewhere that he didn't fit your perception.

    I said the U.K. not the E.U. and secondly the news on the BBC regarding the recent news says that "Mr Panetta called on Israel to restart peace talks with the Palestinians.

    He added that the US remained committed to Israel's security and WOULD NOT ALLOW Iran to acquire nuclear weapons.

    "Unfortunately, over the past year, we've seen Israel's isolation from its traditional security partners in the region grow, and the pursuit of a comprehensive Middle East peace plan has effectively been put on hold," he said…"

  • E.I., sorry you did mean the U.K., the same U.K. that was the loudest voice concerning Libyan military intervention for supposed humanitarian concerns while guaranteed full access to Libya's oil and natural gas sector in the aftermath? Just what flag was flying in Libya once liberated, how about the Al Qaeda flag!

  • Well if the U.S. can do it for Iraqi petroleum and Afghan poppi, then why should the U.K. and France be denied an oppurtunity to steal the wealth of another nation under the guise of humanitarian concerns?

  • My,you ARE determined to be a contrary Mary! So you set up your political straw-men to create a miasma of befuddled theorising, to give yourself opportunity to publically sweep away your own suggestions, as if it were the oppositions, with a dramatic sweep of your theatrical arm in a paltry attempt of a meaningless melodrama of mice and men.
    You stoke yourself up, then bluster your disjointed calumny of denigration to reach the climax of a hapless grande finale of a one-sided, fractious debate with Rodney as producer and starring Rodney , trying to use me as your token Brit, stuck in the middle of an epic of self opinionated adoration of your own self supported bias.

    In other words – I am not being your stooge to self glorification; so on yer bike, and shut the gate behind you!

  • E.I., you constantly claim my comments are muddled and confusing, perhaps you have a literacy problem. In addition I have provided scriptures that clearly back my view regarding the "Doctrine of Imminence" as being a false doctrine. It seems whenever you are faced with changing the perception you have been taught you begin to launch out on personal attacks. In fact E.I. perhaps it would have been better if you never replied to any of my comments since they obviously confuse you, thinking for yourself is a process we all have to master, do not worry you will probably get there soon enough! In the meantime, I will try to use phonics or symbols to help you understand!

  • If it makes you feel better about the mish-mash of tangled information above you expected me to unravel – then that's fine – I am too old and sadly confused and was unable to work out imminency for myself – but – at least I understand Grammar. 🙂

  • I always try to offer a new perspective on prophetic events according to the scriptures as they are presented! I am not one to support obvious errors in interpretation nor am I able to lend my support to them simply because I want to be accepted in the club! Current events always present a rather focused view on where we are in the divine plan of these "Last Days".

    While as children of the light and of the day we are to examine these things, to be watchful, though some would suggest this is "newspaper exegesis", I could not disagree more. The fact of the matter is that the fulfillment of prophetic events is based on our ability to identify them as such, based on the events as they occur!

    It is God that reveals himself and intervenes in the affairs of men, the inability of the Pharisee's to recognize the Messiah as he presented himself before them, also identifies that their personal interpretation clashed with the reality of the plan of God that was clearly also indicated in scriptures that they willingly chose to ignore.

    I am not here claiming a direct line of revelation from God, I am only asking others to consider the possibility that what we have been taught and continue to embrace, could in fact be an error. We must all be as Berean's and search the scriptures ourselves, not relying on preconceived notions or supporting them simply because of the status of those presenting them.

  • We know your opinion of everyone else; we are ignorant fools because we are not the capable Bereans you see yourself to be.

    Whenever one of us does happen to agree with you, I notice you are quiet happy for us to think as you do. You don't question our own reasoning abilities then!

    Obviously you deem your own opinions to be the plumb-line we should all aspire to, not the Bible or gifted teachers appointed by The Holy Spirit for the benefit of the Church. It is YOUR self opinioned bias that names our personal study as a 'preconceived notion' presented by the mysterious 'them'.

    When are you going to consider the possibility that we are not all a bunch or mindless Lemmings you make us out to be – such arrogance is beyond description? As for this ‘fool’; I must be, because as usual, I am the only one bothering to reply to your uptight notions.

  • E.I. this is a forum to discuss all things in their relation to Bible Prophecy and relevant subjects and I will continue to participate as long as allowed! If you feel it is pride that enables me to respond in opposition to what is presented, then perhaps you will never be found guilty of said pride! To embrace the status quo is much more safer to those without the ability of independent thought and analysis! Cheerio!!

  • I have never been a fan of Status Quo, they may be "much more safer", but their music is too high brow and wildly independent for me to comprehend.

    Toodle Pip!

  • Well…. i am not nearly as educated as a lot of people are about prophecy, but im workin on it! My opinion is…. Christs return must be imminent, because he is the decision maker. I feel that when he says.. i will return as a thief in the night, he is reminding us that many people will be caught off guard who are not ready, as we believers strive to be. A thief in the night comes when people are sleeping, which is what most of the church is doing now. Anyway, lets all stick together. This is not a matter of doctrine. But i will tell you, it is my constant blessed hope that the rapture is immiment. Incidently, nathan, on ur show last night i saw ur post rapture video and i was moved to tears. Again, thank u and dr reagan for ur devotion to our coming king. Dr.. reagans book .. Gods plan for the ages is incredible and i love it!!!!!

  • Hello Susie

    You and I are of the same opinion!

    I know all too well what it feels like to be burgled – if we had known the thief was coming, we would have been ready for him and foiled the umpteenth time to be robbed of yet more work tools that cannot be insured against theft.

    Jesus has instructed us to watch for His return, which is now, in the present, not future tense. No-one watches for a dinner guest first thing in the morning; but for someone who is expected to arrive at any moment without prior warning. That is what imminent means and is not only logical, but good old fashioned common sense for the simplest of us to understand – not at all complicated or 'clever'.

    I cannot understand why folk get a kick out of trying to undermine my imminent blessed hope. It is the action of a thief to want to steal something precious. The imminent return is more valuable than gold; during very sad and difficult times, my expectant and imminent hope of the Rapture gives me courage to ‘hang on’ don’t despair, Jesus could be here at any moment to rescue me, from present unhappiness and, of course, the coming wrath.

    All the ‘latter day’ concerns such as the falling away, perilous times etc are all universal sins that could have occurred during the Roman persecution – indeed Paul had to reassure the Thessalonians that the horrors they were facing was not the 70th Week of Daniel because the falling away/departure had not occurred for the A/c to be revealed starting the days of spiritual darkness and wrath the Church is not destined for.

    God bless you Susie, sorry if I sound like a cross patch – someone just tried to nick my blessed hope in the imminent return of Jesus for His Bride.

  • It seems I am the only one here not seeking to hide my identity, my name and my photo are real. Makes me wonder if everyone that frequents this forum is maybe one individual suffering from a multiple personality disorder!

  • Rodney are you referring to the author who keeps deleting their comments – I do think that persistent action is overly neurotic or a severe case of guilty conscience.

    As for your photo; please feel free to spare us the details.

  • Rodney You are being true to the characteristic colour of your face fuzz by being hot-headed and frankly, petulant and juvenile in your feeble attempts at 'put downs'. The high opinion you have of your ruddy facial features is only evidence of your elevated superiority complex.
    When, or if, the legitimate rules of anonymity change, I will comply and be glad to repeat my name – just as I have done many times in the past – until then I will keep with the name associated with my witness for the sudden return of Jesus at the Rapture, of EXPECTED IMMINENTLY, and one that I recognise annoys you so much. Tough! Get over it!


  • Rodney,

    I believe Jesus could return at any time. There is nothing that you can say that will change my mind. But go ahead and say it.

    Just try to do it without emotion. Passion is great. Emotion is not.

    I got caught up emotionally in the vaccination discussion and it had a negative effect on my posts.

  • On a lighter note [and looking up…]
    I've heard this before and it's good, catchy music, and I've sorta heard all the words before but "for some reason" yesterday, I started to actually tune into them.

    So then I did a quik search cause I wanted to see the lyrics, and I know us guys aren't sposed to git all mushy, but having all our kids home-birthed… …well, check this out 4 yerselves:

    "You're Here"
    – Francesca Battistelli

  • We as Christians are told to "Watch" or to observe the signs of the times, looking for the expected time of our redemption (bodily), yet if the "Blessed Hope" could happen at any moment, then why the instruction to watch?

    We should also consider that fact that even the Wisemen from Persia seemed to be the only ones who were able to identify the signs associated with the birth of the Messiah and even recognizing that he would give his life in the pattern of gifts given to the newborn King.

    For Israel it was certain that the Messiah could come at any time to redeem them from their Gentile captivity yet they too did not understand the appointed time and purpose, failing to observe the signs. Our "Blessed Hope" is not a signless event and just as the Wise Virgins observed the approaching of the Bridegroom and were made ready so too for the Church.

    It is a shame that those who had the privelage of having access to all the Messianic prophecies remained ignorant of the fact that the Lord was being born in their midst, it was Gentiles that proclaimed the accepted Time of the Lord! The Second Coming will be no secret, for every eye shall see him and many will assemble themselves to make war with the Lamb!

    The question we all must answer ourselves, will we slumber or will we watch as the Lord requested of his disciple's as he was in agony in the Garden of Gethsemane! How was it then, that they did slumber, yet at the Third Watch they were instructed to "Rise, let us be going: behold he is at hand that doth betray me"-Matthew 26:46.

    The time of our redemption had come at the Third Watch, sin would no longer have a hold upon us, so it is that upon the Third Watch yet to come we will arise and go quickly with the Lord as we will be changed from corruption to incoruption. This is the promise of the Lord, that whether we sleep or wake, we shall live in his sight.

  • The 'SIGNS of the times' refer to the prophecies concerning the 2nd Coming and the preceding seven year Tribulation which is clearly timed and cannot come without prior warning to EARTH

    The Rapture is SIGNLESS, there are no prophecies to be fulfilled and it is JESUS Himself we are told to watch for and wait for his coming from HEAVENLY places where we now are IN Christ.

    These are two clearly defined and distinctly different events.

    As time has passed, we are obviously getting evidence of the signs for the 2nd Coming which means the Rapture 'window' is closing rapidly. The Rapture event remains IMMINENT and we are to be in an attitude of EXPECTANCY to be taken UP to meet Him in the air.

  • DrNofog
    Trusting your wife is on the mend now?
    The song is tremendous, as was the video.

    The angel had told Mary 'and a sword will pierce your heart also'.
    Sons have a way of breaking the hearts of their mothers, in one way or the other. So plenty of tears from me.

  • As Europe falls, Babylon (America) will rise. Once the Euro fails and all investment flocks to the United States, America will reign supreme. The long awaited event we hear so many U.S. President's declare, "Novus Ordo Seclorum" will at last become a reality! The globe will then be divided into 10 regional provinces with distinct currencies and governance.

    While the United States will hold most the wealth of the world, they will maintain a dominant military for the AntiChrist to lead as he goes forth to conquer and put under subjection 3 of these Kings and their kingdoms, then will the remaining 7 kings give their power and authority to the AntiChrist. The AntiChrist will announce that Babylon has risen, the deadly headwound is healed. America will be the seat of this new Babylonian Empire.

  • Not so! That would make 5 Gentile nations and the Bible only prophecis 4.
    The Ten KINGS (not provinces) morph out of the fourth beast of iron Rome with A.c emerging from the Ten which will rule for only one hour before Jesus (the Stone) smashes the great image and sets up the 5th and final Messianic Jewish Kingdom for 1000 years.

    You are making up your own events from your own imagination by inventing allegory where there is none. You are changing the literal interpretation God has presented plainly and sensibly. Allegory is used by God to confirm the literal meaning and it NEVER changes the literal interpretation as you have done regarding the Rapture events as well as the final Empire events.

  • PS
    The EU structure, which are the feet of iron and clay, is not 'falling', it is CHANGING as expected as it is DIVERSE from the previous 3 Empires. Just as iron and clay do not cleave together,this is clearly evidenced by present political events in conjunction with the spiritual side of the emerging False Prophet with ROMAN Popes leading it.

  • Rodney, please explain to me in scripture where america is babylon!??! Seriously, i am so surprised to read that! You seem so knowlegable and yet to a fairly new prophecy student such as myself that seems off the charts. It is my understanding that america was raised up by God to be a protector of israel. But babylon?????? I thiught that mystery babylon in revelation represents the apostate church in rome which will introduce the false prophet. This was a stinging piece of revelation for me since i was raised catholic. The one thing even more painful for me to learn is that noone will listen to me about it in my family and they refuse to search scripture. Anyway, if anyone can enlighten me…. o exp imin…… thanks for ur comments. You sound like a really nice person.

  • Susie, in Revelation 13, we see the Beast from the sea portrayed as having 7 heads, and 10 horns, upon these horns were 10 crowns. The Beast itself as depicted by John was like that of a leopard (Greece), his feet as of a bear (Medes-Persians), his mouth as that of a lion (Babylon). You will also notice that this depiction varies from that recorded in Daniel 2.

    Daniel receives the vision and interpretation and records it as this,(1) Head of fine gold (Babylon),(2) Breast and arms of silver (Medes and Persians),(3) Belly and thighs of bronze (Greece),(4) Legs of iron (Rome), (5) Feet and toes part of iron and part of potters clay (10 Kings).

    We meet again the 7 heads and 10 horns (toes of Daniel) again in Revelation 17 where we see this scarlet Beast depicted as carrying Babylon the Great, she is also known as a Mystery, mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. This same woman sits upon seven heads depicted as seven mountains (nations, kingdoms) as identified as Kings in verse 10.

    Of these 7 kings, five are fallen, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medeo-Persia, and Greece, and one is (Rome), the other is not yet come (10 Kings), there will arise another, he will be of the seventh (10 kings) yet will establish an eighth kingdom. The kingdom of this beast that was, and is not, and is yet to come is a restored Babylonian Empire.

    We can understand this in the context that throughout history Babylon has existed in one form or another, not only is it depicted as a religious harlot but a commerical center of the globe. Several prophecies indicate this modern Babylon to be a commercial power, having a dominant military, a trade capital of the world, a large presence of jewish exiles.

    There is only one nation in existence today that has corrupted the earth in both goods and religious adultery than that of the United States of America whose Babylonian goddess welcomes all to her shores. The deadly head wound that will be healed represented as one of the seven will be that of Babylon, the golden head, depicted as a Lion to rival that of the Lion of Judah.

    The United States exists as the chief proponent in seeking to divide the Land of Israel and in so doing seeks to provoke the anger of the Lord God. The AntiChrist will come from the people (offspring), that destroyed the City Jerusalem and the Temple, not the land! When you visit the capitol of this nation, do you not see the Roman and Babylonian architecture present everywhere?

  • Our currency announces that our nations birth in 1776 is the foundation from which a New Secular Order will be built, depicted as a pyramid, our motto "out of many-one" identifies our goal, to restore the Babylon of old. To build again a tower that will reach unto heaven, to unite the world under another Nimrod!

    The occultic origins of this nation in the form of Masonic orders (Babylonian Origin), identify clearly what our destiny is, though it is certain that many would rather not see this, the writing is on the wall. Though many scholars can not readily identify the existence of America in Bible prophecy, I believe that this nation can surely be found within, from this nation will the AntiChrist rise, establishing a global Babylonian empire.

    Susie, much of the depictions of the Roman Catholic Church being Babylon the Great or the Harlot, is derived from the time of the Reformation. The Protestant leadership sought to demonize this truly pagan form of idolatry yet clearly took away from the true identity of Mystery Babylon. Rome has no dominant military, large jewish presence, nor is it a commercial capital or trade center of the globe! I believe we can surely dismiss this as clear error in interpretation by the leadership of the Reformation, in particular, the great Anti-semetic leader of the Protestant movement, Martin Luther.

  • Just for information purposes, when investors flee a collapsing Europe, just where do you think their investments will go? Once the Euro is no more, the U.S. dollar will reign supreme. America is yet poised to become the wealthiest nation on earth where all the Kings of the Earth buy her goods. Yet one day these same merchants that travel by sea will see the smoke of her burning afar off!

  • Rodney, thank u for taking time to discuss these issues with me. I am going to look some things up right now, but i quickly wanted to ask u a couple things….. btw… i am studying ed hindsons teachings.. but im still learning so. Hahaha…. give me room for error…. ok…my first confusing point is… i was under the impression that the 7 hills were indicitive of rome….. second… i thought it was likely that china would eventually hold the money… and for now..third, i dont think dr hindson claims reformation point if view… ????? I am very serious about learning everything i can to know my Lord as deeply as possible and who i choose to learn from is extremely important to me. (Not that anyone cares about that !)

  • Hello Susie
    As you are a new student of prophecy; I strongly advise you to stay in the sheepfold of Lamb and Lion until you can critique from a solid foundation of understanding end time prophecy using the God given literal historical/grammatical hermeneutic such as used by the Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles. i.e. When the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense.

    Remember that Scripture interprets Scripture and no prophecy is for any personal interpretation such as Rodney is practicing here. 2Peter1:20.

    R.C. uses an interpretation known as ‘Covenant Theology’ which spiritualises Scripture (allegory) and changes the literal meaning of a Text. Within Scripture, God does use allegory to help explain His literal meaning of a passage, but He always explains it within the Scripture, and it NEVER changes the literal meaning of the text. He is not the author of confusion.

    Adding too or taking from God’s Word such as Rodney is doing here, is forbidden by The Lord in His Word throughout the Bible. E.g. Deut12:32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.”

    Most particularly, in this instance, is a most serious warning at the end of Jesus’ Revelation to John.

    Revelation22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Some believe that old Babylon, which today is in the modern nation of Iraq, is to be rebuilt, even in the process of rebuilding as begun by Sadaam Hussein. They believe that the A/c will operate from there, and that God will destroy it with fire and it’s smoke will ascend for ever and ever. As it is built on an ancient lake of tar, the smoke from it would be very impressive.

    That Washington in America and many other Western nations, including London U.K., Paris France etc; is very heavily manipulated by the Masonic Lodges which influences throughout most, if not all, world governments. Babylon, the head of fine gold has continued down through the ages as the monetary system and as the dwelling place of ‘mystery’ of wickedness and Satanic worship in all its guises.

    One thing is for certain. Babylon is definitely not America which has no links with the Biblical scenario whatsoever other than being an unnamed member of the nations of the world.

    God bless you with His wisdom in your Bible studies.
    Keep looking up!

    P.S. To the best of my knowledge, Ed Hindson is 'kosher'.

  • E.I. …. im grateful u chimed in!!! Thank u! I was getting a little nervous…. i thank u sincerely for straightening out at least where rodneys point of view originates. I agree with u(the word) .. meaning i will not presume an allegorical point of view. Its not for us to do. I also agree that our precious Lord is not the author of confusion. So then i will take our friend rodneys opinion at face value and pursue my prophecy quest as i am. Do u agree that the lion is europe and the plucked wings represent america?? Hey, seriously, thank u for taking the time to chat with me! Im an ol widow in az and i often yearn to fellowship with true christians.

  • Susie, Revelation Chapter 12, verse 3 identifies the seven heads as seven kings and their perspective kingdoms. "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads". This identifies clearly that the 7 heads are kingdoms.

    You will also notice the depiction of a great red dragon, the dragon is always identified as Satan or the Devil as verse 9 also identifies with. "Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceedingly high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me"-Matthew 4:8,9. Here we see clearly, the one that has been behind all the kingdoms throughout history.

    The vision of an Lion with eagle wings plucked (Daniel 7:4) is a representation of Babylon during the time of King Nebuchadnezzar, when the Lord did remove his kingdom that sought even to exalt itself to the heavens. Yet the Lord in his judgement did transform Nebuchadnezzar into a beast eating grass and even being given a heart of a beast as recorded in Daniel 4:16. It was so however that when the King humbled himself and acknowledged the King of Heaven, that he stood again on his feet and was given the heart of a man again and his kingdom restored.

    Susie,our best instructor in the Word of God is the Holy Spirit, seek his guidance as you read the Word, and you will never go wrong. We have the promise that not only will the Spirit lead us unto all truth, he will also show us things yet to come as recorded in John 16:13.

  • E.I., thanks for chiming in, yet it was Susie that requested my knowledge concerning these things. It is clear that you stand in opposition, yet I also feel it is fair to warn you that you do not stand in opposition to me, yet to him that I serve. It is this same one that will judge you accordingly. I ask that you repent in the name of Jesus. I have not come to pervert the Word of God, yet this you claim of me.
    As you have labeled me worthy of plagues, by your mouth will judgement come unto you!

  • Rodney, thank u !! It will take me some time to look at all u have given me so i can give an intelligent response. But i appreciate ur imput. Look up! For our redemption draweth nigh 🙂 incidentally, have u read dr reagans bk .. Gods plan for the ages? I thought it was awesome.

  • Susie, to be honest, I try not to affiliate myself with a lot of books, I tend to let the scriptures speak for themselves, relying on the Holy Spirit to open them up to me. Scripture interprets scripture! I find that sometimes interpretations of scripture are derived to certain denominational leanings of the author's. Most are seminary taught by professors of theology in their particular denominational brand.

  • Rodney, you presume too much! May I remind you that Susie has come to LAMB and LION for direction? This is not Rodney’s domain – you are like me – merely a contributor here on this site run by Pastor Nathan Jones at the leading of Dr. David Reagan.

    As is so often the case, you do make valid points, but then fail in your conclusions i.m.o and I stand by what I have written. The Lord is thankfully long-suffering of our foolishness, but to ignore His warnings is the height of folly as it will result in loss of reward at the Bema, and unpleasant consequences of Divine discipline in the here and now.

    Where I believe your downfall lays is with your refusal to take wise counsel from those who have been given the gifts of teaching from the Holy Spirit who is The Teacher. Personal interpretation of God’s Word is exactly what is causing the present apostasy of the Church and we all need to beware of Satan’s devices to deceive and lead astray.

    I have done for Susie exactly what I would want for myself; and that is to be made aware of being led into false teaching. What Susie, or anyone else, chooses to do with that caution is entirely between them and The Lord.

    Your curse has been duly noted – and I do not hold it against you.

  • E.i. … thank u ……. for what its worth, i am completely confident in following lamb n lion and have partnered with them as a result of my assurance in their genuine, spirit lead ministry. No offense rodney, for i love u in Christ, but it really is a shame that a man who seems to love ourLord and want to serve him as u do…… could be so arrogantly in error. Thanks for ur confidence ei

  • Hello Susie

    I should be fast asleep by now as we have a very early start in the morning. My hubby has to have an operation tomorrow so I am a bit restless. If all goes well, it shouldn’t involve an overnight stay – our main concern is hospital bugs like MRSA that finished my poor old dad off after a stroke.

    Apart from reading Dr. Reagan’s many articles, the only book I have read of his is “The Master Plan – Making Sense of the Controversies Surrounding Bible Prophecy Today”. I have had it for several years now, but the content is still applicable today.

    I confess I have never heard this view of the Lion and Eagle wings before, and by what you say, I fear it is yet another ‘spiritualizing’ of the literal text to fit another theory. Believe it or not, I agree with Rodney that it concerns Babylon and represents exactly as is written. Sorry to disappoint you, but there are a great many odd ideas out there by normally sensible people.

    How I see it is when a new king comes along, he wants to be seen as the biggest and the best; so what better symbol to represent his perceived greatness, than to pick a Lion as the king of beasts, and an Eagle as the king of birds. They look back at History and see how these emblems were used by the ancients, so bring them up to date and use them to identify themselves – having said that, the ‘mystery’ religions and politics are all interconnected via demonic beings that are merely picking up where the old humans under their control left off at their deaths.

    Solomon said ‘there is nothing new under the sun – all is vanity’ and I reckon that’s what it’s all about. Now I really must try and get to bed for some rest. You take care!

    God bless you much.

  • A comment for tomoro…. i will pray for ur husband and ur family tonight. My husband died 4 yrs ago.. so i understand medical issues. I hope the best for u. Thx for ur help and fellowship. Talk to u soon.

  • Susie, I am not offended by any degree, nor am I arrogant, I have only supplied what the Lord has given me. If I am deemed a fool, then let me be a fool for Christ. It appears that regardless of my intention to open the scriptures in a new light to focus on misconceptions related to prophetic events that these will never be accepted. I am branded as one yet unlearned and without regard to those with more credentials then I.

    I will then do as instructed and step aside and let those events to come yet speak for themselves and at the appointed time you will recall what was then said here. My time here is come to a close, I have many times enjoyed the fellowship on this forum. If anyone feels so inclined to contact me further, you can reach me either on my Facebook account which is of my name Rodney Dezarn, or at

  • Hi billy!! Thanks for the comment! Im in for the long haul. To serve my LORD! i am so grateful at ur encouragement, as my quest is to know him and to serve him with all of my heart 🙂

  • Sue, hope all is well with ur family. Just wanted to let u no that irvin baxter with .. end of the age.. ministry is the prophecy teacher who said the bit about the eagle wings. I emailed l&l to see if they would recommend him or not……

  • Susie,

    Nathan has a link on this page (lower right) to Who's Who in Bible Prophecy. The link is:

    Irvin Baxter, according to that site, is a "bad apple" (their rating system).

    It says about him "Has unique views of prophecy, says they are "his" theories, and thus has many good and bad ideas. He has a correct view on Israel's role in history, and correctly argues against preterism. He says we are now living in the midst of the sixth trumpet of Revelation 9, and we may soon witness the annihilation of 2 billion people. The fifth trumpet he claims began in 1991 when Saddam Hussein (Saddam means "the destroyer") set Kuwaiti oil fields on fire, and ended with his execution in December 2006. Mainstream scholars consider that absurd. He hosts the popular radio broadcast, "Politics & Religion," and is founder of Endtime Ministries at He does not accept the doctrine of the Trinity, and is affiliated with the United Pentecostal Church which claims its methods are the only true way to salvation. He also rejects a pre-tribulation rapture based on Revelation 20:4-6 which he claims is the "first resurrection." He fails to follow the text which clearly describes this first resurrection as being for the martyrs of the tribulation period after Christ's Second Coming. He also believes the two witness of Revelation chapter 11 are now here on earth, and mistakenly thought they might be revealed in Israel during the summer of 2011."

  • Billy, …..YIKES!!…. thank u soooooo much for all the info. I have only listened to him a few times but something was bothering me about it andim so glad i got up the nerve to ask u guys. (Kinda humbling.. considering how i would never ever let myself be taught by someone who does not believe in the holy trinity!) Again, thx alot 🙂 God bless u

  • Hello Susie 🙂
    Thank you so much for your prayers. It was a very long and tiring day yesterday as I waited at the hospital with hubby. Finally they gave him the ok to leave. We arrived home at around 7 o’clock, had a bite to eat then I fell into bed exhausted and overslept this morning. The surgery was successful, just praying there will be no bugs to contend with and healing goes well.

    I am really delighted that Billy has taken you under his capable wing. If Nathan is busy, Billy will see you right!

    Irvin Baxter! Oer! Never mind, you have been guided through two important lessons on how deception can work; some of the nicest people can be used to lead us from the straight and narrow.

    Keep very tight to what The Word actually says, beware of ‘red herrings’ and always be led by the gentle promptings of The Holy Spirit – and ALWAYS test those prompts with The Word. If you aren’t sure, then WAIT in trust for clarity and do NOTHING until the way is clear in His Word. All the while praising The Lord and giving thanks for the answer on its way.

    Don’t be afraid, if you start off wrong, The Lord will gradually steer you back to the right direction.

    1Thess.5: 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
    19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
    23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

    Every blessing in Jesus.

    (((((Big hug Billy)))))

  • PS Susie
    The context of my previous post concerned learning and moving on in God’s Word.

    I don’t mean to suggest you live your life afraid to move forward without a Bible verse like those who use an Ouija Board or the daily ‘stars’ in a newspaper. We are to walk our daily life with Jesus by God’s GRACE through FAITH knowing full well that He is always with us. Too many in the church today have fallen into mysticism looking for a so called ‘word’ before they dare make a decision. That is bondage to fear, not the Liberty in Christ meant for us. Galatians 5:1.

    Proverbs 3: 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; 6 In ALL YOUR WAYS ACKNOWLEDGE Him, and He SHALL direct your paths.


  • Sue, just so u know just a little about me…. as i read ur first message this morning, i had tears coming down my face by the time i finished it. 🙂 i love the Lord so very much. He not only gave me salvation 29 yrs ago, but saved my life again about a yr n a half ago.. i had a serious nervous breakdown and was the walking dead. But, now i have given Him my life again and i will never ever leave my Chritian calling for ever. I am truly grateful to u and billy for helping me out. I have been praying for deeper knowlege and relationship with God and have asked for people just like l&l, u and billy. Thank u all sooo very much. Phil 3:10 is one of my constant prayers.:) so glad ur hubby is doing well… lots of rest im sure is in order for u both after that ordeal. In Christ sincerely and with love, sus

  • Welcome, Susie! Sorry for being late the the conversation. I've been running a marathon of events finally culminating in the annual Tim LaHaye Pre-Trib Conference the last two days and are playing catch up.

    Don't mind Rodney. He has a deep and burning sadness for the decline of the Church and the USA itself, and it usually gets expressed in wanting to see judgment against them, which hopefully he's wanting for the purpose of leading to repentence and not just for some kind of payback.

    These very two questions, 1) Where do we get imminence? and 2) Is the United States the end time Harlot of Rev. 17 & 18 were very much in discussion at the Pre-Trib Conference.

    Imminence I'd argue comes from the verses in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 where Jesus says He'll be returning "like a thief" unexpectedly. Plenty of signs are given in those chapters that tell of Jesus' Second Coming, but for the Rapture there are no signs that proceed it, therefore it's an imminent event.

    The Harlot in Rev. 18 with the economic power, being the source of immorality, and sensual living does sound like the United States today. But, it cannot be because the Antichrist's kindgom will rule over the entire world, and that includes the United States. The kingdom hates the Harlot, so the US cannot simultaneously be the kingdom and be hated by the kingdom at the same time.

    No, the Harlot is the apostate one-world religious system. More info's on this in The Great Prostitute of Revelation 17 and Revelation Chapters 17-18.

  • Susie,

    You said re Baxter "I have only listened to him a few times but something was bothering me about it…"

    That shows you have good basic instincts in your faith even before you investigated further.

    While I appreciate your kind words (and Sue's), I would say rely on Lamb & Lion and any of their associate Bible prophecy teachers re: prophecy education and you'll be fine. I'm just a "student" like you and still have much to learn. I'm no expert or have any formal training.

    But as for being a fellow Christian who will be here to join in discussion and offer support and prayers to you if needed, I can do pretty good at that.

    One more thing, don't be scared off if discussions ever seem to get heated by anyone…it's more passion than anything though sometimes emotion can get the better of some of us (like me).


    I prayed for you and your "hubby". God bless.

  • Billy, thx …. ur words r duely noted. I prayed long n hard about partnering with l&l and as i searched scripture God assured me this was the right decision… so its a commitment. Im not easily shaken .. u no…. having the anchor we do. 🙂 nathan, thx for the info, i will research that today. God Bless u !!! Im looking forward as always to serve my Lord in a deeper and more knowlegable way.

  • Nathan, what is ur opinion on this question…. will those Christians who truly love the Lord and have given their heart to him, but r clearly confused on the timing of the rapture…. go up with us pre-trib?

  • Hello Susie
    Scuse me from interjecting with the good news.
    EVERYONE who has put their faith in Jesus to save from sin receive eternal life and are baptised into the Body of Christ at the moment of Justification by the Holy Spirit.

    Christ's Body is cleansed with HIS righteousness – there will be no dismembering of Christ's Body/Bride. From children with limited understanding to the elderly with lots, when Jesus calls us, we shall ALL arise to meet with Him and when we see Him THEN we shall be like Him! 🙂


    Billy – God bless you for your prayer support.

    Don't be putting yourself down; we don't have to know everything to be used by The Lord. We can be like sign-posts that point in the right direction to those who want to know the Way better than they do now.

    This is the Way, walk in it >
    < This way be dragons! 😀

  • Hello Nathan

    I am SO glad you are back!!!
    I have really missed you and was beginning to think you or the family were poorly.

    God bless you n yourn.

  • Thanks for the awesome news…. sometimes i worry about my son and other family members on the rapture. They will just be wonderfully surprised!! I no its going to be soon…. i can hardly wait!!!!! Come quickly Lord!

  • Susie, the incorrect idea that only those who are especially deep in their relationship with the Lord and are eagerly anticipating His return and so have “earned” being participants in the Rapture is called the Partial Rapture Theory. Those who hold to that view never see themselves as not being in the "holy" group and usually want some punishment coming to a church or Christian they feel needs to suffer to refine themselves before God. This view is a form of Christian snobbery.

    Jesus did all the saving work on the cross, cleansing all believers, making us appear holy before God. No amount of suffering will make us "more holy" before the Father.

    If a person is truly saved, and only God knows, then they are a member of the Church. Since Jesus returns for His Bride the Church, then that person would be raptured. Each of us live a life in the process of sanctification, and for some it's harder than others. Good thing Christ's blood has covered our sins and made us pure before the Father.

  • Thanks nathan! And i hope u all dont think i believed that…. i had heard a minister say it on tbn and it worried me. So i asked u. 🙂

  • Susie…..I'm a regular reader tho i don't comment much.
    1) I'm a partner with this ministry mostly because a)they're very theologically sound b) because Nathan puts up with my, what is it hundreds of questions? More like thousands. How many is it Nathan?:) also he gives me his own take on them and doesn't just mimic Reagan….tho he's an excellent scholar too!

  • 2) about post-tribbers going up, one of the most godly person i know is a post-tribber and tho i disagree with his position he's a very godly man and i know he's going up in the rapture

  • Thank u .. hartdawg……. that makes me feel better.. i know im asking lots of questions… but i searched long and hard (1 1/2 yrs) for a solid ministry to trust and look to for correct guidence. I probably sound like a baby, but i take all this soooo ver seriously. Its my whole life and i like it that way. But like we all no, there r alot of false prophets out there. I am glad to "meet" u and im happy that l&l partners r awesome like nathan n dr reagan r . I dont go to church cuz i am handicapped and pretty isolated since the death of my husband 4 yrs ago. Anyway… thx again… and…. interesting name!!! Haha

  • Tens of thousands, Hartdawg! I've even created a separate auto-spam subfolder just for you. Just kidding, LOL! Hartdawg's one of the most passionate students of Bible prophecy I've ever met. Student to master in under 3 years.

    Glad you're with us, Susie! You'd probably like fellowshipping in our Facebook group, too.

  • Sue said "We can be like sign-posts that point in the right direction to those who want to know the Way better than they do now."

    And also for those that don't know the way. I never miss it when an opportunity presents itself at work to tell non-Christians about the rapture so they will have an inkling of what happened when we disappear. (I tell Christians, too, cause some of them don't know either).

  • Rick Perry

    Susie is handicapped.
    I do hope this remark of yours is a mistake, because it certainly isn't funny!

  • EI,

    I didn't get the "Rick Perry" comment until I read your reply.

    If your take is correct (could be since this person used the name Rick Perry in a sarcastic evil remark – a sign they could be a Christian hater considering his last political ad in which he talks about his faith) then this person is an evil incarnate.

    If not, they need to clarify their comment.

  • Rick perry…… isaiah 40:31 i plan on it! And whatever u meant by that comment… i hate to disappoint u but being crippled in my legs hasnt stopped me from running TO an awesome place like this fellowship. God bless

  • Sorry billy, i meant to thank u too. I have had ignorance flung at me for years and now, praise God, it bounces right off and Jesus replaces hurt with perfect peace 🙂

  • It is my personal belief that the antichrist comes from a revived Roman Empire (EU or whatever form it takes in the near future), which is what Daniel states. Once he conquers the world through the Roman system he leads a world empire from Babylon itself and will be destroyed by fire (Jeremiah 51). Rome and Babylon are one in the same, and we see both rise at the end.

    Here is a great article from The Pre-Trib Research Center concerning Babylon:…ing-of-babylon


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