Can the United States of America be found in Isaiah 18?
Dr. David Reagan and I recently had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Mark Hitchcock on the show Christ in Prophecy. Mark is a leading Bible prophecy expert, prolific author who has penned over 20 books on the end times, senior pastor of Faith Bible Church located in Oklahoma, and adjunct faculty member of the Dallas Theological Seminary. He is also a much in demand speaker at Bible prophecy conferences all over the nation.
Dr. Hitchcock was invited to answer questions based on his book The Late Great United States. The subtitle of Mark’s fascinating book — What Bible Prophecy Reveals About America’s Last Days — states the purpose. The book digs deep into the Bible, mining for any textual nugget that might reveal some value as to the United States’ future as an end time player.
The US in Isaiah 18?
Dr. Reagan: Mark, I would like to get into the topic of the United States in Bible prophecy by taking a look at some of the places where people historically have found the U.S. in Bible prophecy.
One of those places that I know of goes back a long-time because I read books published in the 19th Century that claimed Isaiah 18 is a reference to the United States. That chapter refers to a nation of people who are tall and smooth (like with no beards), and it talks about a people who live in a nation that is divided by a great river. How about it — is this a direct reference to the United States?
Dr. Hitchcock: A lot of people like to go to Isaiah 18 when looking for the United States in Bible prophecy, and so I have read that as well. This view is from centuries past and is a very old view. The second half of verse two goes:
“to a people tall and smooth-skinned, to a people feared far and wide, an aggressive nation of strange speech, whose land is divided by rivers.”
Everybody would agree that America is not mentioned by name in the Bible. There is just no direct verse where the name “America” is written.
Now, concerning Isaiah 18, to me there are several problems with that chapter supposedly referring to the United States. For one, a lot of people latch onto verse one’s reference to a “land of whirring wings” and conclude that the whirring wings are the wings of an eagle. Since verse one points out the location of “Cush”, then this is a reference to the Nile Valley area and those whirring wings are the wings of insects, not eagles.
When we read Isaiah 18, it is in the context of God talking about some of the near nations around Israel. God is talking about Egypt and ancient Cush, which is today the nation of Sudan which is south of the modern day nation of Egypt. And so, when verse two and seven say it is a land divided by a river, people take that to be the Mississippi or another river, but by naming Cush we know the verses are talking about the Nile River.
Dr. Reagan: This shows how desperate people are to find the United States in Bible prophecy.
Dr. Hitchcock: Yes it does, and you know people can read things into Scripture. It is like that old statement that goes, “Wonderful things in the Bible I see, especially those put there by you and by me.”
One of the big problems with interpreting Bible prophecy is when people speculate on the Bible in light of current events or things we would rather see instead of reading current events through the Bible. Doing the latter I think is so vitally important to correct interpretation.
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Thanks, Junebuggg – you're the best!
No problem Nathan, and you are very welcome….glad I saw it and could cut it off at the pass. 😉
Now about todays article……I don't see the U.S. mentioned "specifically" anywhere in the Bible. If we are there, it is only in general terms such as nations, or peoples. Specifically though, no.
How about America as the "hammer of the whole earth?" (Jer 50:23):
"How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!"
… this is where I'm seeing us as our military opens war fronts seemingly everywhere. Maybe this is why America is not mentioned? It is gone.
Thank you for the article.
I assume after the Rapture most Americans will be gone. Those left behind would likely be more than willing to submit to an intact EU led by the antichrist for stability in a fearful time of national distress.
Some take great effort in trying to find America in Bible Prophecy and others take great effort in making up their own.
Just when are those ritos and fires and such going to occur in New York again???
I just finished reading the scripture you posted….interesting for sure, especially in light of verse 25 "The Lord has opened up his arsenal and brought out the weapons of his wrath, for the Sovereign Lord Almighty has work to do in the land of the Babylonians"
It could be a reference to the U.S., but still it's not specific enough for me to say, yep, there we are.
I was going "hmmm?" until I read the second part of Jer. 50:23 which goes "How desolate is Babylon among the nations!" Compare it to verse 35 and 40:
"'A sword against the Babylonians!'declares the LORD—'against those who live in Babylon and against her officials and wise men!'"
"'As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah along with their neighboring towns,' declares the LORD, 'so no one will live there; no man will dwell in it.'"
Then Rev. 18:9b "'Woe! Woe, O great city, O Babylon, city of power! In one hour your doom has come!'"
This is a prophecy against the city of Babylon/Antichrist's kingdom.
i dont believe america is anywhere in prophecy. americas demise i think will occur in phases. phase 1)moral decline. that began in the late 60s phase 2) economic decline that took off bout a year ago. phase 3) the rapture will deal america a crushing blow phase 4) dr. reagan once speculated a nuclear attack by russia prior to Gog/magog. i think they`re gonna have chaves in venesuala do that.
That sounds about right to me. And, that nuke may be Russian, but it may not come directly out of their hands. I was just reading something that Almond-what ever his name is…said. He said that Feb. 11 will be the end of the west's economic power, or something like that. I read it early this morning, so I don't remember it word for word, just found the date he mentioned rather odd. When is the "superbowl"?? :-0
The Iranians yesterday launched a missile they say is for space research, but proved they can now deliver a cargo anywhere in the world. The shot up turtles and worms, but later it'll be fissionable materials.
Read all about it over at Eschatology Today.
ya, i read the article. makes me wonder. i dont think the u.s. will be part of the global government. i dont think Gods` gonna let america off that easy. the U.S. deserves destruction. BUT while we are still here we can delay his judgement as long as possible and win many to christ.
Wow Hart, do you really think there won't be a living soul left in the whole country…..when the global gov. beings??
i think we`ll be a third world nation at best. there will be very few. (only speculation of coursw)
think about it junnnbug, i drive by 6 churches to my bible study/accountability group every week. we have dozens of translations of the bible in every bookstore. more light than any other nation. "to whom much is given…" how can God not bring this nation to an end?
i apologize for my negativity. perhaps (and hopefully) i`m wrong
America may be deserving of judgement but not of wrath. As bad as things are in this country we are still overall a Christian nation. Most Americans are still God fearing and try to live by a moral compass. Unfortunately evil stands out and tends to overshadow the good that is still the majority. That is why I think America will be spared the wrath of God until after the Rapture.
As for Iran, let's just hope Israel goes in and start dropping the bombs. It's what has to happen and they are the only ones that will do it.
I think there's a lot of hope that the United States will be around in the Millennium. We know along with Israel that Egypt and Russia will be there. Just because we've dropped the ball as of late doesn't mean God doesn't have a better future for this country, a future where (for awhile at least) the U.S. will be populated by nothing but believers.
Nathan, I like that line of thinking. The United States is one of the most advanced countries in the world. I think much of it will remain on in to the millennium, even though it may be sparsely inhabited after the rapture and during the tribulation period. I don't think we are meant to exist as paupers, ever, though some do as a result of the sin in the world. So once Christ is reigning during the millennium why wouldn't he give us "comforts"?
Hope I posted that the way I mean it.
This just goes to show that even though something is "old," in that it has been believed (by some) for many years, doesn't necessarily make it true! Heck, even the Galatians got Paul's teachings wrong, and that was just a short while after Paul himself left their presence.
Just something to keep in mind when you start considering what's true and what's not. I've heard people point to the writings of first century believers, Martin Luther, etc. etc., but even those folks erred. Only God's Word is infallible!
pergaps you`re right. remember, i live in the most unchurched, humanistic left winged part of the country (as statistics show) so my outlook is a little skewed. hopefully we will be a major nation during the milleneum. i just donno and most do try (without christ) to live by Godly principals
Personally, I think the US will be absorbed into a North American Union (which Bush 2 really pushed) after the Rapture (although I don't count out a nuclear solution: Chavez is just as crazy as Ahmajinadad and in cahoots with him to boot). With an estimated 40% of the US population gone just like that, something will have to happen just to keep the lights on.
And I also think that at another point the NAU will be absorbed into the global community.
The placing of a cross at a pagan worship site being investigated as a "hate crime".
I have heard this scripture talked about in reference to the symbol of the Lion being England and the Eagle wings representing American with the smybol of the Bald Eagle and the connection between the two nations.
"The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.
C in Salem
C in Salem, Daniel 7 is a prophecy about the 4 great empires from his time to present (and future). The beast described in verse 4 has nothing to do with the US or GB. The creature described represnts Babylon in Daniel's time. The symbol of Babylon was a lion, and the stripping of it's wings implies loss of power and authority.
This prophecy was fulfilled in Daniel's time by the Media-Persians when they conquered Babylon in a single night. The Media-Persians are represented in the next verse as a bear.
The Greeks under Alexander and later by the leopard and Rome finishes the prophecy out in the next few verses.
thunder and c
some regard it as a double prophecy. (muslin ac advocates) they say the lion/eagle is babylon then britian/america the bear is persia then russia. the leapord is greece then the orien and the beast with horns is rome then islamic countries. its a fairly old interpretation (and a wrong one)
Don't buy into the pre-trib rapture hoax brother. This states the scriptural case well: http://is.gd/7LWjt
There will be a "rapture" but it will be after the tribulation period and before the Lord unleashes his wrath.
Question for pre-trib rapture believers: does this means it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to take the mark of the beast? After all, you won't be here, correct? So anything offered to you in the right hand or the forehead you can willingly take, correct? After all, again, you won't be here for the mark so it cannot be the mark. Correct?
The pre-trib rapture hoax is being perpetrated by satan through false teachers….when you realize this (assuming you're still alive), you may not have the ability (due to hopelessness and despair when you see the truth) to withstand taking the mark.
Beloved Christians….I beseech ye to discern this pre-trib rapture hoax while there is still time.
I believe America is the "daughter of Babylon" (Jer 51:33).
Which nations fit this description other than America and Britain ("mother"):
"Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert." (Jer 50:12)
Now, if America is the daughter of Babylon, does the bible not command us to "Come out of her, my people" (Rev 18:4)? Literally, move out?
Beloved fellowservants, this is not a game.
Interesting (end)times for sure.
Dissent, just where do you think the Christians that need to "come out of her" are to go? Is there some especially Christian nation we can all flee to like the Puritans did when they fled from England to the New World in the 1600s?
I'll answer that – nowhere. That's why believers in Christ will be raptured to Heaven (the only safe place) while God's wrath is poured out upon the world during the Tribulation. It is THE only safe place left.
I'm reminded of a an article I read a few years back about the "Mayflower II" project. Basically, it was about getting all the Christians and going somewhere and starting a new Christian nation. I think they even toyed with the idea of a spaceship.
Like you asked, Nathan: Where would we go? Where COULD we go?
Well, Diss… At least you're not a 'stone-thrower'. [-doesn't stick around to see the hornet's nest come alive after the throw] 😉
Stick around. You might just learn something from us dyed-in-the-wool PTRs!
I followed your name-link DissentFromDayOneDOTcom & your in-page NON-resistant link…
Dude! I hope Harry Bethel is not you cuz he has some serious interpretational problems!
"Shortly before He was crucified, the command of Jesus to His disciples to get a sword had to be done to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy that Jesus was numbered with transgressors. Jesus was falsely accused of many things including Him being a transgressor. All Old Testament prophecy was, or will be, fulfilled to the very letter. In Isaiah 53:12 the prophecy was that Jesus would be numbered with transgressors (plural). Only two of the disciples had swords which was enough to make it more than one transgressor, that is, transgressors in the sight of the Jews who falsely accused Jesus of many things. There was no need to have all the disciples to obtain a sword. When the disciples told Jesus, "Lord, look, here are two swords" He told them that that was enough. (Two disciples with one sword each, made it enough to fulfill the plural nature of the prophecy.)" — ROFLMAO!!!
To have 2 disciples, in obeying the Lord's command & hence, becoming "transgressors", really borders on blasphemy, in that it is impossible for God to lead anyone into transgression! If it wasn't so sick, it would be hilarious!
There is a standing, tried-&-true principle: If the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest it become nonsense…
The simplest, most obvious, most universally accepted fulfillment is that Jesus was hung between the 2 'transgressors'!
"If Jesus was teaching something different concerning non-resistance He would have ordered all the disciples to obtain a sword."
And so He did! "he that hath…" is totally open-ended advice to all disciples for standard self-family-country-defense [not directly connected with your witness], — NOT a command to become a 'transgressor'!
"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36.
"And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough." – Luke 22:38
Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? – John 18:11
[Advice: This is not the proper time. — Pick & choose your battles very carefully…]
But, then again, I could just be all caught up in "The pre-trib rapture hoax is being perpetrated by satan through false teachers."
PS. I forgot to mention that this is the 1st, wildest, equator-sized stretch of an "interpretation" that I have run across… Wow!
I agree with Hartdawg and Laura.
I am mystified by the US need to see them selves in end time prophecy? I am just the opposite hoping that Britain will come out of the EU and not be a part of it at all.
May I be candid? I don’t want to offend; but the USA is only a little blip on the horizon of history, of how long 70 yrs or so and now in decline. Death and destruction are the same whether by a sword and arrows, or smart bombs. It’s only the method of terror that has changed. Compared to Babylon, the U.S. comes no where near its power and significance in the eyes of God and His plans and purposes.
The U.S. has never been a conquering nation creating an Empire as did Babylon, neither has it induced fear among the world – disliked perhaps by many, just as Britain was/is!
The Medes and Persians, Greece, the Romans were all ‘terrorist’ nations. Britain could at one time say that ‘the sun never sets on the British Empire’. For all our past ‘glory’, we along with France, Germany and Spain cannot begin to touch the comparative power and influence of Babylon so that God called Nebuchadnezzar a ‘king of all king’s’ and compared with Gold.
What metal are last day ‘conquerors’? Britain was possibly ‘tin’, pliant and manipulating! Perhaps the US is Silicone used to replace metals and wood etc with a plastic imitation?
God bless you all as the last, but fast fading bastion, of the true Church.
30 or so years ago, in Britain, a Christian government secretary leaked information that babies at birth, were to receive a ‘mark’ upon their heads ready for the cashless society. It was a big news topic at the time, and it frightened the living daylights out of Christians.
With that in mind, you need to recognise that ‘a’ mark on its own means nothing without a conscious and willing act to recognise A/c as god, and to actively worship him.
However, as that isn’t going to happen, don’t worry about us as you will come up with us Pretrib regardless of your timing theory.
By the way, no one taught me Pretrib, I arrived at it against all opposition to the contrary all on my own reading The Word of God prayerfully while trusting Him not to deceive me!
As the Holy Spirit is my teacher, it would be Him you refer to as a ‘false teacher’ which is, I believe, attributing to Satan the things of God?
Or suggesting that God lies and will not give us wisdom to understand when we ask in faith for it!
The big secret friend is to never forget context, interpret Scripture seriously, not figuratively and recognise the distinctions showing exactly to whom, God is speaking.
(Sometimes He is speaking to Israel or even of Satan and his host, not everything applies to the Church)
EI said: "I am mystified by the US need to see them selves in end time prophecy" and, "but the USA is only a little blip on the horizon of history".
I think the reason so many want to see the once-blessed and once-powerful (and we were so only because of our blessing Israel) US in Bible prophecy IS because we have basically been the dominant world super-power (a mere shadow of Great Britain which is a mere shadow itself, as you point out, EI), and we can't stand the thought of NOT being the world's dominant super-power.
When you see pictures of our great cities, you see towers of steel, concrete, and glass which gleam in the sunlight and glitter at night. What you don't see is the cancer that infests the streets: the drugs, murder, and prostitution. Like a tree which blooms green every spring, but is dead and rotten in it's core is the USA.
When Jesus said “The kingdom shall be…given to [another] 'nation'…" [Matthew 21:43] He was talking to the Jewish "Nation" and anything other than Israel, by their definition at the time, were the Gentile dog nations.
Israel had fallen from their original calling of 'proclaiming His great Name' and being 'a light to the Gentiles' so that they could be saved, & become partakers of the ‘unconditional’, everlasting Covenant with Abraham, to becoming an elitist nation believing that the Gentile dogs would all become slaves to serve the Jews when Messiah came. See Matt. 15:22-28:
Again in Luke 4:24-28 when He mentioned the Gentiles – the widow of Sidon and Naaman the Syrian, the Jews clearly understood what He said to them and that was just another reason why they wanted to kill Him. Remember also that Jesus was using their customs of the day when He spoke of 'dogs' to the Canaanite woman [Matt. 15:22-28] to show that Israel had lost their faith and that the faith of the Gentiles was growing instead.
Most would agree that, after 70 AD, 'Christian' western civilization inherited the blessing. However, after WW2, when Israel 1st became a nation again, there was only 1 nation in the world that was still on the rise to its zenith that would qualify as that 'specific nation' to whom Israel’s blessing had passed to, to provoke Israel to jealousy [Rom.10:19-20]
Of course, now that OhBummer has already given this "nation" the Judas kiss at the UN when he threw Israel under the bus, that has pretty much completed the cycle of passing our 'Blessing' back to Israel and removing our protection from final judgment.
[I wonder if the Yellowstone caldera will be a factor in taking US out of the final power play…]
”The pre-trib rapture hoax is being perpetrated by satan through false teachers….when you realize this (assuming you're still alive), you may not have the ability (due to hopelessness and despair when you see the truth) to withstand taking the mark.”
Coupla things. How is it a hoax exactly? Please don’t tell me Darby pinched it from Maggie M.
And what makes you think that someone preparing themselves to meet Christ at any moment will end up in hopelessness and despair if the pre-trib rapture is wrong?
Wish I had a dollar for every time I read this baloney.
Nathan, I was thinking about this the other day. what if govt run healthcare passed and we were all ordered to take a chip in the hand for medical records reasons. to save costs. Should a PT christian agree to this? Aaron T
RG – You're right on! That's a pretty shallow belief in Christ's ability to keep us! "…nor things to come…" Rom.8:35-39
Postrib has a very idealised, version of Trib events. In their ‘cloud cuckoo land’ imaginary concept, Posties assume they are to be kept safe by God all the way through the horrors. As there are no Scriptures to support this ideal, the only place they could refer to is the sealing of the 144,000; 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes that God marks for protection as they evangelize the nations of the world.
When Israel is to flee into Petra for safe keeping, no other group are mentioned. As The Church does not belong to a tribe on earth, it can only refer to the obvious plain meaning of Scripture which is specifically to the Jews.
One thought has certainly escaped them in their desire to show how courageous they are by being accepting of going through the Trib; and that is the Trib is coming upon the ‘earth dwellers’. It seems to have escaped them that the Church is not an ‘earth dweller’. When we are saved we are told we are then ‘seated in heavenly places’ and that our ‘citizenship is in heaven’, where our new homes await us; we are but ‘aliens’ passing through this doomed world.
But of course Post believes Israel is the Church and vice verse, so they are claiming the prophecies, meant only for the Jews, and they apply them for the ‘church’ as well. Yet there is no Scriptures to support that theory and all gentiles who come to The Lord in the trib will be executed if they don’t manage to find their own method of escape from the A/c. This is why God has limited the Trib to 7 years only, otherwise there would be no one left alive to go into the Mil.
Posties also reckon that Pretribs are ‘scaremongering’ over the ‘assumed’ terrors of the 7 years supposing the ‘wrath’ only occurs ‘AFTER’ the trib. (strange). My math’s are poor, but I reckon an overall reduction of the earth’s population to a half beginning at the opening of the seals, is something to be scared about? Have they not read Jesus’ words about it being the worst time in human history which has ever been, or will be? That must include what Haiti has been through, the Tsunami disaster and of course the holocaust for ‘starters’.
Just in case a Postie say’s, as is their wont, ‘I hope pre is right, it will be a wonderful surprise’. Let go my friend, and dare to hope in the ‘blessed hope’ of a rescue from planet earth designed by The Father for His loving Son’s Bride. Even if you find it difficult at first, you will open your hearts for the Holy Spirit to quicken it to you. In the world ‘seeing is believing’; but within God’s kingdom it is ‘believing is seeing’.
It’s kinda funny really. On the one hand some of these folks are concerned that pretribbers won’t be prepared for the trib and on the other hand they accuse them of making the trib out to be worse than it will be. I’ve now read two articles claiming that the 4th seal doesn’t actually say one fourth of the population will be killed. You gotta ask yourself what motivates someone to argue that in the first place if they’re exegetically correct that the wrath of God isn’t present there anyway. Is the wrath of God contingent to some unknown quantity of deaths? The other thing that’s funny is that a lot of them restrict the reign of the AC, yet they worry about the pretribber being able to cope. Well, I suppose I better go build me a spine.
Thankfully the strength of yours and my spine is irrelevant, as that would be 'work's, and we aren't saved (sozo) by works but by grace through faith. Being saved (sozo) from wrath is not by our works either.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
1Thess.1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, [even] Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
‘Ah yes’ cries the Postie ‘ that’s right, we aren’t destined for GOD’s WRATH, which is AFTER the Tribulation!!! but we do have to endure man’s wrath and Satan’s wrath throughout the Tribulation’!
Apart from the fact that ALL the un-pleasantries of the Trib are of God when comparing Scripture with Scripture, obtaining Salvation through Christ, means we are not appointed for wrath – – – wrath full stop, we are not destined for.
1Thess.5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
These three Scriptures all say the same thing. Matt.18:16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
2Cor.13:1; Hebrews 10:28.
That’s another set of three ‘witnesses’ supported by more in the O.T. but Covenant Theology does not accept the O.T. Scripture as evidence to support the N.T., they maintain all O.T. prophecy is fulfilled in the church.
Pre-mil C.T. also known by ‘Historic Pre-mil’ and/or ‘Progressive Disp.’ are the only ones within Covenant Theology who accept there is a LITERAL 1000yr reign of Christ on earth; they have only ONE Scripture as a ‘witness’ to this theory in the N.T and that’s Revelation 20:1-6. They do try to use Romans 11:26 but only partially as that verse doesn’t specify where all Israel will be saved during the mil, or elsewhere, only that they will be saved. So they cannot even manage two solid ‘witnesses’ from scripture to support the truth of the mil.by their 'spiritualizing' method of interpretation.
P.S. On reflection I think it may seem as though I am calling the mil a ‘theory’? To clarify, I meant the theory of Postrib, not the mil. Sorry for any confusion.
Aaron said… "…Should a PT christian agree to this? Aaron T"
Aaron, Not to worry. Janet Reno had all those 're-education' camps built on military bases to help confused individuals like you cope with these 'necessary' measures…
When 'they' come around with the next squalene-loaded "flu" vaccine, 'Just Say No'!
It will be Ok. Trust me…
Squalene: The Swine Flu Vaccine's Dirty Little Secret.
After all, you'll just be doing your part in keeping "The Georgia Guidestones" 1st Commandment:
1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
The Georgia Guidestones
I do hope you don’t mind my rather excessive comments? This ‘stuff’ is always ‘buzzing’ me and I am always asking The Lord to explain something or other. As I have extremely limited fellowship and no church to ask, I become impatient to have ‘it’ tested and checked by knowledgeable brethren who can guide me. I won’t sulk if you cut me off at the pass, so to speak!8~}
Quoting myself quoting a Postie >_< ‘Ah yes’ cries the Postie 'that’s right, we aren’t destined for GOD’s WRATH, which is AFTER the Tribulation!’
The Tribulation/ 70th Week of Daniel is shortened by Jesus to save The Tribulation saints/elect who will be saved within that 7 years when The Church has be Pretrib raptured. This is when I think Posties reckon the Rapture happens? When in Matt.24:29 Jesus says AFTER The Tribulation of those days.
RG Re the 4th seal error, Posties are very confused over the seals, seeing them spreading throughout the full length of the 7 yrs; the sixth seal corresponding with the signs of the sun, moon and stars at the 2nd coming of Jesus in Rev.19:11.
Posties have failed to recognise that the trumpet judgments come OUT of the 7th seal to continue a worsening scenario, past the 3½ yrs into the second half. Likewise the 7 vials of plagues only begin AFTER the sounding of the 7th Trumpet after an extended time.
Matt.24: Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Bob Mitchell of Shofar says the word AFTER is what changed his mind from a pretrib position to Post. Bob M sees the 7 yrs as mans and Satan’s wrath only, not God’s which he sees matching the 6th seal Rev.6:12-14 indicating the sun the moon and the stars signs; but chronologically, the 6th seal is near the mid point of the 7 yrs.
Obviously this is a mistaken interpretation as these are all part of the sign of the Son of God returning in Shechinah splendour in Rev.19 His brilliance will ‘put out’ or dim the lights of the day and night as they ‘bow’ before Him as Joseph saw the same bowing down to him in Genesis 37:9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, "Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me." Joseph being a ‘type’ of Christ.
Isaiah 13:9- The context moves from a near fulfilment of prophecy against Babylon, to its final fulfilment at the day of the Lord in Rev.19 with the cosmic disturbances that PRECEDES, as well as surrounding the physical return of Jesus at the end of the 7 yrs. Vs.10 “For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.”
Rev.7:3 the 144,000 Jewish tribes are sealed for protection within a parenthesis or ‘time out’. In Rev.8:1 the 7th seal is opened when 7 angels are given the 7 trumpets and the 1st Trumpet is sounded in vs. 7 ‘hail, fire, blood, trees and grass burned up. 2nd Trumpet = a mountain of fire thrown into the sea with blood; 1/3rd of sea creatures and ships destroyed.
Posties have mistimed these events and need to understand that ALL of them begin just before, during and just after the mid point of the 7 yrs not AFTER the 7 yrs. At this time there are the remainder of the Trumpet judgments, and the 7 bowl/vial judgments yet to occur. Few will be able to survive so The Lord formerly decided to cut short the judgments for damage limitation or there would be NO survivors.
Matt13:20 And unless the Lord HAD shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Matt13:20 “And unless the Lord HAD SHORTENED THOSE DAYS, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days”.
My personal view is that this is what Rev.10:4 means with the seven thunders that John was told NOT to write down. I believe Lev.26 contains four lots of 7 judgments against Israel, and God limits it to just the 3 lots of 7. (I wrote about this previously as ‘Sue’ in an earlier thread). BUT it is an unsubstantiated view, so please don’t take my word for it. An ‘anonymous’ was checking it out at the time and I would really like to know what Nathan and Dr. Reagan also thinks of this?
To save trying to find the thread, this is a quick ‘break down’.
Leviticus 26:18 1st lot of sevens = seals of Rev. 6
Leviticus 26:21 2nd lot of sevens = trumpets of Rev.8
Leviticus 26:24 3rd lot of sevens = bowls of Rev.15:7
Leviticus 26:28 4th lot of sevens = mystery of Rev.10:4 – cut short.
Leviticus 26:33 Israel was to then have been scattered as they were in history but instead he is gathering them into the 1000yr Messianic kingdom on earth by His Grace for His names sake!
Mark 13:20 unless the Lord HAD shortened those day’s (past tense) already decided to limit The Tribulation to only 3 lots of seven judgments instead of the original 4 lots of seven judgments over 7 yrs.
As the ‘cut off’ point for the
70th week is final, it is folly to suppose that God’s wrath will continue AFTER The Tribulation on the sanctified ‘earth dwellers’ otherwise there would be none left alive to repopulate the mil.
His wrath is shoving the A/c and False Prophet into the lake of fire, killing their army of rebellious‘earth dwellers’ with His Word/Sword and chaining Satan up in the bottomless pit. These things will not affect the righteous living who will be cheering their demise (I expect?) RSVP Thank you.
Aaron said: Nathan, I was thinking about this the other day. what if govt run healthcare passed and we were all ordered to take a chip in the hand for medical records reasons. to save costs. Should a PT christian agree to this? Aaron T
You have to remember that the mark has to be taken willingly: it can't be forced. So if they want to force people to take an RFID chip for medical reasons, that's not the mark, although it would definately be a precursor.
Just speaking for myself, though, I wouldn't, because I like what little privacy I have left.
Excellent commentary, EI.
Ah RG, just like my hubby, strong and silent, a man of few words! nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!
Yes I know, I heard! Chance would be a fine thing! ;D
EI, you gave me lots of interesting stuff to ponder. I resisted making further comments and beating a dead horse but it wouldn’t take too much for me to go shooting my big mouth off.
BTW, some time ago I did stumble onto Bob Mitchell’s site where he announced that, regrettably, he no longer considered pre-trib viable. I remember a bunch of folk from another system got real excited and quickly flocked over there to try to recruit him.
Shutting my mouth now.
Please don't worry about offending me, I posted this for others to judge, if I am wrong anywhere I want to know where and why. The Holy Spirit is my teacher, He is wonderful but this old human can too easily get side tracked by the flesh and human zeal.
Poor old Bob M, my heart goes out to him, I know He really loves Jesus and will be very upset with himself when he realises his mistake of listening to a deceiver. Yet it is also frustrating not being able to get through a barrier of dogged stuborness. Sadly his friends, who know little of this subject, are buoying him up in this deception.
Pretrib is a tiny minority in the UK, few teachers here are able to debate it with Posties – or they are so into 'love' they are afraid of speaking out the truth boldly, or if they try it loses any impact choked out by PC.
Going by what I read, the US believers have little idea of the darkness in the UK, sadly that is changing now. I understand two street preachers were recently shot dead -terrible, I am so sorry.
You said "Don't buy into the pre-trib rapture hoax brother."
Just so you know, I'm a TOTAL pre-tribber all the way!
That was Diss that said that 2 you…
Aaron, I don't think Americans would ever let themselves be forcibly chipped, that is until after the Rapture and the world goes crazy. We've got to remember that the Mark John describes in Revelation says nothing about a chip, and so much of the fear today over getting chipped is unfounded.
E.I., you're a joy to read. Just remember that long posts are a deterrant, and some may skip all that wonderful info. We Gen Xers have such short attention spans!
Americans are so concerned about the U.S. being in Bible prophecy because we are currently the world's superpower, and the Bible is basically telling us we won't be really soon. It's heartbreaking, but I think the U.S. and G.B. will have another shot at being Christian nations once again in the Millennium.
Thank you for being candid Nathan; I know you are right and I hope I have deployed most of my pentupness. I will make an effort to go against my nature and do as dear RG says and 'shutupamyface' quicker! 😀
My dad was a Geordie from Newcastle Upon Tyne, big ship building, big docks, big football and the like. He lived at Walls End, the wall being Hadrians wall, lots of great Roman history.
On his 80th birthday we took him back to see his birthplace. His old home was still there and he told me how he stood at the garden gate, looked around and felt such pride at being British. Then added 'now look at us'!. We have gone the same way as the Romans.
All that to say 'I do know how you all feel' – but our outlook is preparing us for an uptake!
E.I. said… "Going by what I read, the US believers have little idea of the darkness in the UK…"
Some of us do, but sadly, the majority of US believers have even little idea of the darkness right here in our own backyard!
We have our own little American Stonehedge here in the "good" ol' USA for the satanists to prance around on full moons and, as evidence of how high this goes, in our nation's capital [But of course! Where else?] we have a statue of a Confederate General… One statue only, and NOT of any of the well-known Confederate Generals, but of an obscure Brigadier General Albert Pike. His claim to fame? A high-ranking, Illuminati satanist that had a vision in 1870, and mapped out our 3 world wars…
I made a very interesting discovery a number of years ago when I ran across a number of Christian "Anti-conspiracy" websites that condemn us as Christians "who have fallen under the influence of Satan" and are spreading slanderous lies of the Devil that defame people… and, of course, calling on us to "repent" of this great evil!
In researching this a little further I found, and I still marvel to this day, that it's because of bad theology! — Replacement Theology prevents the majority of Christians from accepting plain and easily *verifiable* facts of history! – Facts of history that clearly show we're headed into the NWO exactly as predicted by both worldly scholars over several generations and the Bible!
Could this be one of those Verifiable facts of history…? David Rockefeller, -Memoirs, p.405: "We are on the verge of global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nation will accept the New World Order", "Some even believe we (the Rockefeller family) are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure–one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it" [emphasis mine]
When I lay this a the feet of Replacement Theology it's because they're taught that there is no future Trib, it's past, and "we simply cannot be descending into ruin — cuz we're making the world a better place…converting the whole world…bringing in the Kingdom so that Christ can come back a receive it from" *us*?!? – mere humans… handing the almighty Creator His OWN Kingdom?!? – What an arrogant "theology"!!!…
EI, I meant shooting my mouth off in general. The stuff you posted needs to sit in my head for a long time before I get a clue.
Hey DrNofog, I’m getting quite an education from reading Dr Fruchtenbaum’s Israelology. Of particular interest is how he takes an argument from a Replacement Theologian and dissects it.
EI, it amazes me how a theologian like George Ladd is constrained to Rev 20 for his support of a millennium because he’s spiritualized Israel into the church. I know the Amillennial guys make great intellectual cases for what they believe. But it kinda reminds me of a crafty lawyer getting a criminal off the hooks. You know the guy’s definitely guilty but the lawyer’s argument is so eloquent.
DrNoFog…thanks for pointing that out (it was Dis, not EI)
DrNoFog: I love your comment about replacement theology and how arrogant it is. When I read that it was like a light going on pointing out that that's exactly the way I've tried to describe it!
EI, some us are aware of the darkness in GB. I mean, at one time you all put more missionaries in the field than anyone else. And it was the Balfour Declaration that put a "people without a land" into a "land without a people".
And now you have more mosques than churches.
It's really sad to see how both our nations have fallen over the past 60 years.
Son of thunder. rev 13 says the beast forced everyone great and small…..
nathan. I know it doesn't say chip but i thought there was wide consensus even on this blog that a chip of some sort was likely given the rise of surveillance society, etc. is that not true? thx in advance.
Hey Aaron and Nathan,
I've got one on my shoulder (chip). Does that count?
Dude! You are soooo doomed!!!
For a modest fee$$$$$, I'll dig it out for you and then you'll be Ok!
Aaron, you'd be right that many Bible prophecy students today see the chip linked to the Mark. They read Mark and its requirement to buy and realize the technology needed to control buying/selling and leap to the conclusion that the Mark and the chip are one. While I don't dismiss they may be related, the Scriptures don't tell us so I don't make the same conclusion.
I've wondered… if the Mark was an implant, why didn't John say that everyone was required to have something placed "in" their skin, rather than "on" their skin.
Americans prancing! Hm that conjures up an interesting picture, do they do ‘high fives’n all, and shout ‘yeeha’? 😉
Now Pike I have heard of when reading up on the Masons, one and the same methinks.
Replacement theology has a lot to answer for – dare I suggest that it, combined with the perverted teaching of the so called ‘British Israelites’ cult, is behind the reason why some normally sound Brits and U.S. Christians, look for GB and the USA in the Bible. Their Scripture twisting has even filtered through to fundamentalists. Imo.
Rockerfeller’s words may come back to bite his bum come judgment day! No good him whining ‘but I didn’t know’!
Frucht’s books are certainly worth the hand cramps I get holding them. I had Israeology for at least a year before reading it. It was exactly what I needed trying to understand the Premil. version of Covenant Theology. It isn’t an ‘easy’ read, yet it is certainly worth the effort to apply oneself. I agree over Ladd, and the others, with all that intellect yet they are neutralised by their determination to be controversial and ‘different’, or is it plain old ‘rebellion’? What a waste of brain power! Your analogy of a corrupt lawyer is spot on. Eloquence or ‘verbal diarrhoea’?
Have you listened to ‘Come and See’ Frucht’s Discipleship Training Schedule? In the ‘Messianic Bible Study’ is a section concerning Israel and the Jews MBS 179 – LO27. It has helped me a great deal to understand this subject.
Son of Thunder
I comfort myself with the thought of how God has used Brit in the past. I think the Balfour Declaration may be why The Lord has been so long suffering with us. I like to hope that those old timers prayed for our generation, men like George Whitfield, who took the Gospel to the U.S. and came from my home town, maybe The Lord is honouring their prayer’s, otherwise I dread to think how much worse things could be.
Certainly the Mosques are filled to capacity every Friday, more than the Churches are on Sundays, and they are being converted into other uses, being stripped of their contents which are then sold on at auctions. I have seen pulpits, stained glass; pews even discarded Hymn books, mountains of them at a nearby reclamation yard. It is truly sad to see. We have some fabulous old Cathedrals, ours is around 1800 years old (The setting for ‘Harry Potter’s’ Hogwarts school was filmed there)That speaks volumes of the attitude of the English Church! Ecumenism, Alpha, Toronto, Purpose Driven now Emergent that comes in and swamps us like the tide.
Aaron said: Son of thunder. rev 13 says the beast forced everyone great and small…..
A better translation of the Greek word poy-eh-o is "ordained" and it also means "transgress the law" – Strong's. So what these verse say is that the 2nd beast will ordain that all take this mark or they will be breaking the law. Even though this is a "forced" thing, there is still the choice: take it and live or not take it and die. They're not going to forcibly hold somebody under a laser-etcher or chip-installer or whatever.
It's a terrible choice to have to make (Tribulation saints won't take it and will be instantly herded off to die), but those in the world will take it because 1) they have no other hope and 2)self-preservation will kick in. It will probably be common knowledge what the penalty is and most would rather live in security as a slave than die as a free man.
There is a great multitude that is martyred during the Trib and there is also a great multitude that does not take the mark and yet they endure to the end alive and they go into the Kingdom to have children.
I think there will always be "do-gooders" [Golden Rule, works…] that have compassion on the saints, supply them with things they need to survive the 3 1/2 yrs and will foster an underground economy.
I'm not sure how much of a time lag there is from the decree of the mark in Rev. 13:16 to the angel flying, having the everlasting gospel [Rev. 14:6] and to the 3rd angel issuing the warning of the mark Rev. 14:9 and then how much time to the end, but obviously, the saints don't all get rounded up and axed. It takes time to ferret them out.
Maybe David & Nathan might chime in with some thots on this…
Gotta have believers who pass the Sheep-Goat Judgment and go on to populate the Millennial Kingdom. Then there's the 144,000 sealed, and then the third of the remnant of Israel who are protected in the desert saved. So, there will be a lot of believers around to survive the Tribulation.
You have numerous archive articles and comment postings that make the point of the saints that endure to the end.
My question for your thots is more on the timing of the decree of the mark in Rev. 13:16.
It seems to me that the mark and demand for alliegance to the rest of the world would not be before the abomination, but would be in response for the Jews refusing to worship A/C shortly after the "in the midst of the week" desecration. And that is followed by the angels of Rev. 14:6, 9. And, although he will be going after the Jews, he also has his plate full with events around the rest of the world… "But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him…" Daniel 11:44
That's a very interesting discussion topic, DrNofog. When during the Tribulation will the Mark be given?
We know the Rider on the White Horse is the Antichrist, revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation by the breaking of the First Seal Judgment and begins the Tribulation by signing the peace covenant with Israel (Dan. 9:26-27). Rev. 13 is just filling in the details about the Antichrist and his False Prophet, and so it could be taken that the Mark begins with his reign.
But, there's the one-world religious harlot that needs to be killed mid-way before the world worships the Antichrist, pledging their loyalty with the Mark. This would put the Mark requirement in the second half or Great Tribulation.
My own thought is like the Nazi's who wore the swastika armbands, the Mark will be a symbol of his empire – voluntary in the first half, mandatory in the second half.
"voluntary in the first half, mandatory in the second half."
That's a strong contender I hadn't thot of…
I know I'm joining the conversation years after it's posting, but I have an issue with the article.
Dr. Hitchcock ends his discussion and rules out America's (POSSIBLE) reference completely based on verse 1 of Isaiah 18, when clearly the following verses are saying that the people of the Cush region will GO TO the tall and smooth people, whose land and aggression is VERY similar to the U.S.
My best guess is that Isaiah is a two level prophecy, one prophecy was given to the Jews and simultaneously another prophecy was about the last days. Isaiah explained that he told the end from the beginning – meaning he prophesied about the end (the last days) using events from the beginning (his time plus a few hundred years to Cyrus). This is why there is temple covenant imagery associated with Cyrus in Isaiah – whereas this is not the case with the historical Cyrus. Isaiah chose Cyrus to describe a future person who do things like Cyrus and will be associated with the temple. For the end times the names of nations Isaiah used were code names rather than literal locations. The Assyria that Isaiah spoke of for the last days was not modern day Syria, but an aggressive warlike powerful nation that was typified by the Assyria of Isaiah's day. Egypt was a refined super-power of its day, with many similarities to the USA today.
Cities of Isaiah's day were city-states. So when he speaks of 5 cities, it could correlate to 5 of our present day states inside of the USA. All national borders will be be broken by Assyria, which could leave 5 states in the USA continuing to fight.
The best interpretation on Isaiah I have found comes from Avraham Gileadi.