The Christ in Prophecy Journal

The End of the American Experiment


(Editor’s note: This article is taken from the postscript in the third edition of Dr. Reagan’s new book, America the Beautiful? The United States in Bible Prophecy.)

As I view the future of our nation today, I must admit that I have ambivalent feelings. I am extremely sad, and yet I am full of joyful expectation.

I feel a deep sense of sadness as I see the Great American Experiment in representative government come to an end. We have been abundantly blessed by God ever since our forefathers arrived on this continent, and we have served as a channel of His blessings to other nations, both as a proclaimer of the Gospel and as a champion of human rights.

Keys to Our Success

One of the secrets to our great success was our commitment to the Judeo-Christian principles revealed in God’s Word. Those principles served as the basis of our systems of government, education, and economics.

An even greater reason for our phenomenal success was our commitment to the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our forefathers came to this continent in search of freedom to proclaim the Gospel. Our nation was established as a Christian nation. Our relationships were governed by Christian principles. Our laws were based upon God’s commandments. The Church, whether Catholic or Protestant, provided us with our reason for being.

Our Track Record

We were far from perfect. We struggled with difficult issues like race relations, women’s rights, and the balance between labor and management. But our hearts were in the right place because of the Christian principles which propelled us in the right direction. We steadily made progress in all these difficult areas, and many others.

Throughout the centuries as we sought to evangelize the American continent, we also sent missionaries to the uttermost parts of the earth.

In the first half of the 20th Century, we soared to great heights as we came to the world’s rescue in two world wars. In both cases, we entered these international conflicts for selfless purposes — not to gain territory but to “make the world safe for democracy.”

Our Stumbling Point

But at the height of our glory and power, following our victory in World War II, we began to turn our back on God. We took our eyes off the One who had blessed us so abundantly and began to focus on ourselves. We gave our hearts to materialism.

In the process, we began to divorce God from our lives — kicking Him out of our schools and separating Him from our government processes. The secularization of our society became our passion, and the result was increasing paganism in every aspect of life.

Our Persistent Rebellion

We have mocked God. We have given our hearts to idols. We have forgotten the source of our blessings. We have turned a deaf ear to the prophetic voices God has raised up to call us to repentance. We have ignored the remedial judgments He has placed upon us, writing them off to coincidence.

We must now face the consequences of our rebellion. God has stepped back and lowered our hedge of protection. He is allowing evil to multiply. Greed is destroying our economy. Incivility is ripping apart our social structure.

Money has become our god.

Belief in Man has become our religion.

The pursuit of pleasure has become our lifestyle.

And the payoff is nihilism. We are wallowing in despair.

We are destined for destruction. But even as I witness the disintegration of all that I hold dear, my heart is full of joyful expectation because the signs of the times are literally shouting that all of history is about to arrive at its consummation with the return of Jesus.

A Biblical Reminder

My mixed feelings remind me of Jeremiah after his beloved city and temple had been destroyed by the Babylonians and his nation had been taken into captivity. He wrote a funeral lament called Lamentations in which he vented the agony of his heart. But right in the middle of it, in a great act of faith, he suddenly paused and made one of the most hopeful declarations to be found in all of God’s Word (Lamentations 3:21-24):

“This I recall to mind,
Therefore, I have hope.
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;
His mercies never come to an end;
They are new every morning.
Great is Thy faithfulness.
“The Lord is my portion,” says my soul;
Therefore I will hope in Him.”

Just like Jeremiah, even as I witness all I love being destroyed around me, I can look to the future with great hope and joyful expectation because of the marvelous promises concerning the future that are contained in God’s Prophetic Word.

Some Certainties

Based on those promises, I know with absolute certainty:

  • That Jesus is returning soon;
  • That He will defeat all the enemies of God;
  • That He will establish a worldwide reign that will bring peace, righteousness, and justice to all the nations.
  • And that all of us who are believers will be given the incredible blessing of ruling with Him.

I can hardly wait. All that is within me yearns for the glorious day very soon when Jesus will break from the heavens.

The New World on the Horizon

The corrupt world system that currently dominates this globe is destined to be destroyed. A new world is coming where there will be no homeless, no poor, and no hungry. Justice will prevail. Fairness and equity will abound.

The nations of that world will be committed to the Lord, and the blessings of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the seas.

It is no wonder that the Apostle Paul wrote: “I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us” (Romans 8:18).

In the dark days that lie ahead, let us keep in mind that God is on His throne, He still hears prayers, He still answers prayers, and He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all the evil of Satan and Man to the triumph of Jesus. Keep in mind also that:

“No eye has seen,
No ear has heard,
Nor has the mind of Man conceived
What God has prepared for those who love Him.”

(1 Corinthians 2:9)

But God has revealed those things to us in His Word. Cling to those revelations in the days ahead. Cling to His glorious promises, and you will be sustained.

“Oh Lord, our Lord,
How majestic is your Name in all the earth!”

(Psalm 8:1)

America's Christian Heritage
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ABOUT AUTHOR View all posts Author Website

Dr. David Reagan

Dr. David Reagan is the Founder and Evangelist Emeritus of Lamb & Lion Ministries. He is a life-long Bible student, teacher, and preacher and he led over 45 pilgrimages to Israel. Dr. Reagan was the host of the radio then television program Christ in Prophecy for nearly 40 years.

63 CommentsLeave a Comment

  • Dr. Reagan's line "I am extremely sad, and yet I am full of joyful expectation." sums it up for me completely.

    Nothing less of a national Christian revival or a second American revolution or both can save this nation now.

  • I totally agree. If it were not for the unsaved loved ones, I would beg Him to come now. It is only His grace and mercy that gives even one more day…so one more person can come to Him before it is too late. Great article.

    C in Salem

  • Question…

    Is it too late for the U.S. to change course? What if suddenly there WAS a real true revival in this nation and the people turned to God? Could it happen? Or are events set in stone at this point?

  • "Cling," indeed! May we spend these last days in praise to the Lord Jesus Christ for the certain blessed eternity with Him that He is preparing for us! Maranatha!

  • The absurd historical fantasies in this article are simply astounding. The author has absolutely no clue about the history of this nation. Senate, Representatives, Supreme Court, Constitution, trial by jury, application of reason by a jury of peers. Where are these found in the Bible? A "christian" nation would have religious judges who punish people based on scripture, such as murdering homosexuals, killing disobedient children, killing those who don't worship on saturday, etc. etc. The part about the world wars shows an ignorance that defies belief. To my christian friends, please, you desperately need education, this guy wants to sell you his silly books, spend the money instead on your education, learn about this wonderful world and stop being a sheep! How much money does Dr. Reagan make selling this nonsense? Does he publish this? Do you ask him how much? WHY NOT?

  • Anonymous

    You appear to have based your opinion on the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant.

  • "Just like Jeremiah, even as I witness all I love being destroyed around me, I can look to the future with great hope and joyful expectation because of the marvelous promises concerning the future that are contained in God's Prophetic Word."

    This is how I've been feeling for some time now – sad, almost mournful, seeing the changes that are happening in this country and the world. But at the same time I know from Scripture that this is going to happen, it has to happen, before Messiah can establish His kingdom on earth. Even so, come quickly Lord!

  • Thanks for the input, Expected Imminently. You are correct, the examples I used are O.T. It has nothing to do with my response. The article in question mentions O.T. as part of the influence on the political makeup of our nation. That is simply not true. Nor is the N.T. Jesus says not to work, not to worry about the affairs of "this world", and to pay taxes by looking for money in a fish's mouth, among other absurdities. Is that how this nation was built? Dr. Reagan insinuates that America prospered because we worshiped Yahweh, that is a principle directly from the O.T., found NOWHERE in the new. And since we must focus on the N.T. now, how would Jesus feel about Dr. Reagan selling this info for money? Can you not see you are being played? I know your heart is in the right place, that's why I'm writing this. The NT teaches to give up all you have and follow Jesus, not to sell ridiculous books and pocket the cash, live a life of leisure and use some of the proceeds to take trips around the world. Anyone who makes money off of selling God in any way is a scam artist. The arguments about needing money to "spread the word" are pure nonsense, otherwise Jesus would have asked for everyone to become "prophecy partners" for 10 sheckels per month! The NT does not give any guidance as to civil government, so what else but the OT can a christian point to in regards to law and governance? If I'm wrong, by all means please let me know. Thanks, Fred

  • Anon says a "A "christian" nation would have religious judges who punish people based on scripture, such as murdering homosexuals, killing disobedient children, killing those who don't worship on saturday, etc. etc."

    Anon then says "To my christian friends,…"

    Need I say it…with friends like that, who needs enemies? (Just kidding).

    Everything you mentioned was God's OT law…which is perfect justice for such things in reality. (Assuming you got your examples correct). However, would that not apply to a "Jewish nation"? After all, as as EI pointed out (and you admit) Christianity falls under the NT.

    (Redunant point? Guilty as charged)

  • Hello Fred
    The thing is, Jesus told us to pray for those who rule over us. If there is no law and governance, then there would be anarchy; which means there would be no peace we are told to pray for so the Gospel can go forward into a nation.

    Albeit not perfect, those who rule with The God of the Bible in mind and His Saviour in their hearts have made, do make, an impact upon a nation and the world through their prayers and trust in God.

    I am not an American, I am English, but I feel the same applies to all countries who acknowledge God's Word as their foundation. Thankfully the day fast approaches when 'the government will be upon His shoulders'.

    If you don't agree with Dr. Reagans view, then don't read or buy his book, as adults we can all make up our own minds surely?

    God bless

  • Well, Fred, as Dr. Reagan has a doctorate in the subject, I think he has some handle on the content.

    I didn't charge you to post here, so there's some hope for us, right?

  • Fred,

    My last comment was made after only reading the first half of your comment. I just read the rest. Had I read the rest before I wouldn't have added the "just kidding" in my previous post.

    I have purchased a lot of books and videos from Lamb & Lion and my education on several subjects has increased quite a bit. They are well written/produced and I enjoy them tremendously and recommend them without hesitation. Anyone who says these materials is not educational and just a ploy to make Dr. Reagan rich is IGNORANT.

    You wonder how much Dr. Reagan makes? It's no secret. Look up Lamb & Lion at His compensation is listed as $28,504 which is a mere 1.33% of expenses. YOU owe Dr. Reagan a HUGE apology my "friend".

  • Hello folks. I must say, notice when a rationalist posts a comment, the posts get longer and more substantial 🙂

    Billy, you are my friend. Just because we have a difference in opinion as to who God is doesn't make us enemies. But please note that when religionists had political control of Europe (dark ages) that courtesy would not have existed to me.
    Otherwise Billy, I don't think you answered anything I said. OT, NT, there is nothing here that America was founded on, show me where I'm wrong.

    Sue, you sound like a wonderful person. You couldn't have made my point any better. Jesus DID tell us to pray for those who rule over us- you're right. Is that what foundered our nation? On April 19, 1775 our nation began it's birth at Lexington. How? Did the founding fathers PRAY their Bank of England overlords would redress their grievances, as Jesus commanded? Or did they SHOOT BACK? Yes, those who believe in the god of your bible do make an impact on the world- a horrible one. That's historical fact- the reason Europe went christian is through slaughter and genocide- (look up the Cathars in southern France as one example) A Roman emperor chose YOUR religion because he thought it best to band different groups to the lowest common denominator. Ignorance and slaughter ensured the rest. Another great point you made (for me)- Jesus didn't like the priests selling God in the temple for money- so did he say " oh well, just don't go in there and pay" or did he get a whip and use it? If we were a NT nation as Dr. Reagan implies, then someone should whip him for his corruption. Jesus would! But thank goodness we're a secular nation founded on Greco-Roman principles.

    Whew, I got lost on my original point that this article is pure lunacy! You folks are good!

    Best wishes as always, Fred


  • Fred

    A few extra thoughts

    Have you considered the fact that Jesus was financially supported by certain woman who had wealth?

    Judas, before his demise, was keeper of the funds he fiddled.

    I bought my Bible, no one gave it to me!

    A workman is worthy of his wages.

    'Go and sell everything you have' was Jesus answer to a wealthy, young man whose wealth meant more to him than following Jesus.

    It is the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil, and that can be true of rich and poor alike.

  • Fred
    You are quite right about the blood shed in 'gods' name. Religion is indeed behind the slaughter of multitudes through the ages.

    However you are quite wrong to claim Roman Catholicism as 'my' religion. Nor, may I quickly add, am I a 'Protestant'.

    This is a very broad, inaccurate brush you are painting with, and frankly it smacks of a root of bitterness which cannot be healthy for you personally.

    I fear I am not a 'wonderful woman'; I am a sinner saved by the Grace of God through faith in the shed Blood of Jesus Christ my Lord.

  • Heeyyyyy, I recognize these arguments. This is THE Fred. So good you're on my blog, Man! You like a good debate and these folks can provide you one. After 15 years of our debates, I'll sit this one out.

    I'll refer you to my article Fearless Christianity Built America, though. Whether one likes it or not, this nation WAS founded on biblical principles and a love of the Lord.

  • Hey Nathan! looks like they called out the big guns on this one! P.T. Barnum had a PHD in fleecing idiots, so I guess you can't say anything about him unless you have a PHD also? We don't need to hide behind real or phony academic credentials when it comes to truth. Our Creator gave all of us a mind, and I can use mine without a PHD in nonsense, thank you. My point is STILL unanswered, Dr. Reagan is factually wrong on his thesis. Attacking me or hiding behind credentials doesn't refute my point.

    Billy, you really are a great example of a christian. I call you friend, but you don't like me telling you the truth so you make me your enemy. Do you understand now why christianity has murdered so many? You can't reside in the world of reality so you become hateful of those who do. Jealousy perhaps?

    How am I ignorant? This means I don't have knowledge on something. Explain? And what on earth have you learned from Dr. Reagan's ramblings? I admit to only reading one of his books, so you may be right. If Dr. Reagan did write something of an educational nature then I do apologize.

    Again, most christians who sell their gods (El, Elohim, Yahweh, Jesus, whew) are not trying to get rich. They practice their corruption because they get to live a comfortable, less stressful, more enjoyable life than if they had to actually work in the free market of useful products and services. Wal mart has to give refunds for bad products, our modern day pharises don't give refunds for selling nonsense- because when you learn of the scam- you're dead.

    Sue- excellent points. Last sentence absolutely true. The bible still says you can't sell God for money, however. And your quotes merely demonstrate that the bible contradicts itself, for I've shown that Jesus said the opposite of your quotes.

    Basically folks- think for yourself, you need only read the bible, you don't need to pay for the incorrect historical perspectives of some "doctor"

    Best wishes to all FRIENDS. (You too, Billy)

  • Fred,

    I typed a lenghthy response but changed it to this…you're not worth the effort, pal.

    After all, why do you care what us "Reagan sheep" have to say???

    If I were you I wouldn't bother coming baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack.

  • As usual, so aptly put. There only one link missing. We were set up to be a republic. It still stands but evil has masked over calling themselves democracy. Democracy is mob rule by an exclusive, well off financially, greedy, evil based few. We need to stand once again for the republic for which it stands! A criminal society is being created to make the real criminals appear as good. Hmmm, where is that a theme from? ( many false profits etc). In traveling the could try I find most people do believe they just dont know where to turn with govt outrughtly ignori g them except to rob them of everything. Yes, a new glorious day IS coming to judge the wicked! Pray that scales be washed off that sight be restored & people step up to receive what the Devil has taken! Keep on educating bro! The truth will set you free! Amen.

  • To the anonymous wicked one who is spreading lies about Dr. Reagan. It appears that what the Apostle Paul said in Acts 13:10 applies you and may Acts 13:11 come upon you as well because of your wickedness at trying to subvert people who are looking for the truth.

    Acts 13:10&11 (NIV) "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun." Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

    Also what Jesus said to the Jews who were opposing him applies to you oh wicked one. John 8:42-45 (NIV) Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

    Dear brothers and sisters in Christ read First Corinthians 5: 12 & 13 and expel this wicked man from among you. Don’t even talk with him about anything. It is a lost cause to deal with such a person.
    1 Corinthians 5:12&13 (NIV) What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

    This wicked one who is spreading these lies is a reprobate who is putting bitter for sweet, sweet for bitter, good for bad and bad for good. DON’T PUT UP WITH IT!

    Oh how this wicked one is proving the truth found in Proverbs.
    Proverbs 29:27 (KJV) An unjust man is an abomination to the just: and he that is upright in the way is abomination to the wicked.

    There are some people who are a total lost cause. Remember there were some people who witnessed Jesus raise Lasuras from the dead. A man who had been dead for four days! And what did they do but go and report it to the Jewish leaders and they still wanted to kill Jesus.

    Expel this wicked one and his twisted comments because they are nothing but blatant lies.


  • Billy, why are you taking this so personally? I do care about everyone, including you. Again, we differ in opinion, so what?

    Sue, I never painted you as anything, if you felt otherwise, I'm sorry. If it makes you feel better to think I suffer from bitterness or some other ailment because I don't agree with you, that's fine.

    Allow me to elucidate…

    It doesn't matter what you label yourself as. There are over 20,000 different denominations of christianity, all believing they are the only ones with the keys to heaven. What matters is your epistemology. That is, how do we learn, and how do we determine what's true- and false.

    There are two main camps in this. One consists of revelation, magic, and mysticism, the other features observation, logic, and reason. Please don't tell me religion (any religion) is of the latter. And please don't tell me that science resides mostly in the former. If you use the revelation method, in any form – bible, koran, book of mormon etc. then your label is not relevant. This method has caused most of the death, misery, and destruction throughout history. The observation camp has produced most of the wonders that we enjoy. Please don't tell me about nuclear bombs- I know. Remember I said MOST.

    Sue, you are a wonderful person, don't let the god peddlers put guilt in your head so you'll turn to them for redemption. Our Creator is better than that, if that Creator made you, then he made you perfect from the start, because a Creator wouldn't make an inferior product that needs improvement.

    Best wishes to all of you, (you too, Billy)

  • Ok, I am not sure how I missed the "find comment now" link, after I read all the comments given. I watched your DVD, Dr. Reagan, the 2010 Update on the European Union. Thank you for the information. I pray you and your family and co-workers are blessed by the LORD and His Word. One word in the Bible blesses me time and time again, the word Israel. And the amazing lengths the Devil goes to to try and destroy what God has created. It's nice to know that the Devil has no idea when God will surprise the world with the return of Jesus. And it will be a Surprise! Praise the LORD that the future belongs to Him and all the prophecies He has made are all coming true!

  • Fred

    Stop laughing Fred, you are very naughty. You have got the reaction you wanted and I can hear your chortling right across the pond.

    Fred said “your quotes merely demonstrate that the bible contradicts itself, for I've shown that Jesus said the opposite of your quotes”.

    The only way that the Bible can contradict itself is when the reader removes Scripture from its context.
    If this were a genuine enquiry, I would be happy to take the points in your first post and discuss with you why I do not agree with them. However, argument for its own sake is a barren and futile quest, so for me, your ‘iron gauntlet’ may remain where you threw it, derelict and rejected. May it rust in pieces? 🙂

  • Hello RF- I'm Fred, what's your name?

    You're another great example of a christian, aren't you? You can't refute anything I say, so you attack me and wish harm to come to me. Oh how you must burn you weren't born 500 years ago when you could have me tortured and killed.

    Allow me to deflect your hate with caring. I say this out of concern for you, as anybody who cares for another would do. RF, you are a drug addict, and you respond with hostility to me because I'm taking the needle out of your arm, as all druggies respond to people who try to help. There are better ways to escape reality than foolish religions, and that applies to muslims and all other religionists too. You need education RF. That's why you need to hide behind "scripture", and can't refute my ideas in an educated manner. Why do you think the con artists who wrote that scripture put that stuff in? Because they knew it was nonsense, and they wanted something to point to to justify them fleecing you. All religions have this "evil enemy" nonsense. They wouldn't survive without it. It's a long journey, RF, one that I've made, and I can tell you it will hurt. You can do it, you just need to have the emotional integrity to seek the truth, wherever it may lead you. Read my post on epistemology to start realizing you come to the wrong conclusions because you are using the wrong method for discovering that truth. I'm here to help.

    Please refute my claim Dr. Reagan sells his story for money, by the way, it's not smearing him, it's fact. It's not like I'm acting like a little child, crying and sucking my thumb and calling him a reprobate or something.

    All that hate will eat you up, RF. You sound like someone who might play with poisonous snakes or drink poison because the bible says you can, please don't, you'll die.

    Best wishes to all, Fred

  • Fred, your response proves who and what you are to all who are reading this.

    Nothing else needs be said to the true born again children of God who is you for what you are.

  • To everyone (this is NOT a response to Fred) – please don't respond to Fred from this point on.

    He's obviously playing games at this point and "getting off" on now being the kind, gentle responder to all us irrational hate-filled Reaganites after he first spewed his venom. It was all an evil set-up from which he is now extracting pleasure.

    So please don't post any more replies because it's obvious what he is doing.

  • Fred, your response proves who and what you are to all who are reading this.

    Nothing else needs be said to the true born again children of God who see you for what you are.

    Mispelled word on the last line, Sorry about that.

  • Fred, E.I.'s right, you are being naughty (lol). If you all are going to discuss points and topics, let's leave ad hominem attacks out of it. Attacks on an individual (especially those who aren't here at the moment like Dr. Reagan), is always the last act of the desperate. You have better arguments than that, Fred, and I'd be curious to hear other's responses to them.

    Reminder, the topic is about America being founded on Christian principles.

  • C'mon Nathan, I'm not personally attacking Dr. Reagan, I said he was factually wrong on the article and I gave examples, I also said that it was a fact that he sells his story for money, I also said it was a fact that the bible does not allow a person to sell his/her god for money. Show me where I called anyone a name- read these posts and see who does the name calling. Where am I wrong on the facts? He may be a great guy, but nobody can know for sure because he makes money off his story, this is exactly why the bible says you can't make money off it- because man is naturally corrupt and making money casts doubt on anyone preaching the gospel, regardless of its' veracity. All I've got here is lots of heat and no light. Not one person has shown me to be factually wrong, or even tried.
    Another example, The treaty of Tripoli was signed by most of the founding fathers, including G. Washington, it says that America is in no way founded on the christian religion- that's a fact, not name calling-show me I'm wrong, and folks, the technique of simply declaring me wrong with no proof is tiresome. I've been pleasant here, this article was sent to my email, I read it, and made comments on it. If all you folks want the same opinions to validate your beliefs fine, put a disclaimer at the end of the article saying only people who believe as we do can reply.

    Nathan, I'm sorry if this caused you any aggravation, I honestly got drawn into this far longer than I expected, and I didn't think you would even see it. I know you've got a great heart. But c'mon, read the posts again before telling me I'm calling people names.

    Best wishes, Fred

  • I think it very disturbing that so many American believers have relegated the future "glory" spoken of in the scriptures to some strange system of earthly government in a perfect world.

    Dr Reagen's application of Romans 8:18 in this article is the supreme example of a short-sighted "hope".

    His hope, shared by many deceived dispensational adherents, is one of an ideal country and and ideal political structure and an ideal world.

    A more accurate reading of scriptures will see the greater hope of the New Heavens and New Earth where our New glorified bodies exist eternally (not just for 1000 orbits around our imperfect sun)worshiping our redeemer.

    I urge you all to reconsider where your hope is. Stop hoping in an earthly kingdom and start having full confidence in the redeemer who will destroy this earth by fire.

  • Fred, your comments are welcomed, of course. I think where the heat came from the readership was from two erronous presumptions that you made:

    1) Discount the article because the author is in it for the money

    That's an ad hominem argument. To counter, this particular article generates no revenue, and actually costs us to release. Concerning Dr. Reagan's books, who writes books for free? They cost something to publish. The almost at-cost book revenue goes back into the ministry. Plus, do you know the motives of the author? Maybe he's actually concerned about the welfare of our country (which is truly the case).

    2) The Founding Fathers were not Christian in their beliefs or purposes for this country

    I refer you to the July menu list of articles on America's Christian Heritage. You're welcome to counter any of the historical information with your own authoritative links that state the contrary.

    Treaty of Tripoli

    Now, concerning your reference to the Treaty of Tripoli signed by President John Adams on June 10, 1797. I believe you're referring to Article 11 that states "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". Politicians today say the same thing to Muslim countries, as this treaty was doing the same at the time. It was rightly saying that Christianity was not the state religion, and therefore the treaty was not pitting one religion against another.

    I'll agree with you there. On paper the government of the United States does not declare itself one particular religion. And yet, in practice from the Puritan settlers, the Founding Fathers, historical markers, the writings of the time, etc. etc. – the Unites States was indeed founded on Christianity (and not Deism as you may argue, see Marshall on America's Christian Heritage).

  • Anonymous, looking forward to an era of peace, righteousness and justice led in person by our Savior and King is indeed a great hope. You're right, it'll be better in the eternal state. But, the Millennial Kingdom is looking very good at this point in history.

  • Fred,

    I hold a bachelors in American History. Some questions:

    1. One of the documents that influenced the Declaration of Independence, and Constitution was the Mayflower Compact. Please tell us what the first line in this compact is, and what the expressed purpose for the founding of Plymouth Colony was.

    2. George Washington's step-daughter was asked if he was a Christian following his passing by US gov records. What was her response?

    3. How did Thomas Jefferson sign and date his name when he was President of the US?

    4. From the early 1800's to the 1920's all freshman Congressman received a book put together by Thomas Jefferson, which was printed by the US. What was that book?

    5. Were Christian church services held in the US Gov building, started by Thomas Jefferson, and attended by the President and Congress, up until the mid 1870's?

    6. The Father of the Revolution, Samuel Adams is remembered for his faith in Christ, and often quoted from the Bible in congress. True or False?

    This may seem silly to you, but I would like to see you research instead of me just telling you the answers. To state that the US was not founded upon Christianity is naivety, and a falsehood started in the early 1900's.

    One other thing, the struggle for Independence did not officially start in 1775. That is when the first shot of the war occurred. If you don't take into consideration the Boston Massacre. Our founding fathers were heavily involved in diplomatic channels to break free of British control years before war broke out. War was the last resort, and quite frankly the British fired the first shots in 1770.

  • Hi Gideon, you have posted an excellent response and I appreciate its clarity and intelligence. This is what I had hoped for from the start. Again, you don't have to establish any academic credentials with me, your credentials come from the quality of your thinking, which is substantial. I love history as well, so this is refreshing since I researched many of these items when I was a christian and tried to believe Dr. Reagan's premise.

    Please allow me to answer according to your numbers:

    1) The first line of the Mayflower Compact I believe was a slavish praise of King James, who was, incidentally, a wretched pedophile, The next line was praise for their God Yahweh, although I could be wrong on the order of praise. This document had no bearing on the documents you specified, however, and the Declaration was not part of the legal makeup of the nation, but a listing of reasons for independence, inspirational, yes, but it also listed "natures god" which was NOT Yahweh, but a deist god. No mention of Jesus at all. Also, as you said, this founded one colony, not the nation.

    second part to follow- too many words!

  • 2) Her opinion is meaningless to our argument, the founders religions are not the same as what a nation's political structure is.Ted Haggard is not a christian, but that doesn't mean he didn't found a christian church.

    3) I believe it was the custom at the time to sign, instead of AD as we write today, the year of the lord or something very similar. That is just how they wrote AD, it is NOT a statement of their personal belief. This is a very deceptive argument and you should know better than to use this.

    4) The Jefferson Bible, I think. If so, I can't believe you are using this book as evidence. It was only 30 or 40 pages in which Jefferson said he took out the "nonsense" of the bible and left only the "good" stuff. Think about that- 30 pages out of how many were good, so I guess the rest is bad? He also left out the divinity and resurrection, and all miracles too. What was left was stuff that earlier cultures came up with before the Jesus story.

    5) I'm sure they were, why not? Most of the members had this faith, but that doesn't mean it was a christian nation. I'm sure any Canadian hockey team has mostly christian players, but does that mean its' a christian, instead of Canadian, hockey team?

    6) Again, same problem as #5, it just means he was a christian. Had Dr. Reagan claimed America was founded by mostly christians I'd have no problem because that would be true.

    Gideon, Turkey is a secular nation which has a mostly muslim population. Iran is an Islamic nation with a mostly muslim population. There is a very important difference, one that I hope we can agree on. I can assure you that you'd know the difference if you were a resident of both of these countries.

    It's a difference that matters, and one that's lost on many. If you went to a whorehouse in Nevada, most of the ladies would be nominal christians, but does that make it a christian whorehouse? Same in Turkey, would it be an islamic whorehouse?

    It wasn't silly at all, I love that you challenged me on my facts, kudos to you. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right, but we exchanged ideas as adults, as it should be.

    I understand your point about the Boston Massacre- The first force used by the colonists that I'm aware of was the burning of the HMS Gaspee. But my point to Sue was that had the colonist followed Jesus' advice, we'd still be begging England for lower taxes. Our nation was born in justified violence, not in christian principles. That was my point.

    Again thanks for the comments, and again, my original question still stands- Senate, representatives, supreme court, checks on power, elections, constitution, architecture of DC buildings, trial by jury, patents, protection of property, habeaus corpus (sp?) freedom of religion, debate in a forum, right not to be murdered for working on saturday, , etc, etc. Greco-Roman or christian?

    Thanks again, you remind me of Nathan Jones from this ministry, a class act all the way despite a difference of opinions.

    Best wishes, Fred

  • Whether it's Paul the apostle, or Sosthenes the unknown to the 21st century, to men and women who are dying in their sin it doesn't matter who gives them the water of life, as long as they get it and as long as they drink it and as long as they're satisfied!

    How can Paul be so thankful, when there's such trouble rife in this church, when they're divided, when there's so many abuses of holy things and so much immorality?Well, what a lesson Paul has given us in the first couple of words. What is the lesson? Oh, it's grace! For in verse 3 we have it: 'Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ'. He's changed here the conventional Roman greeting, instead of just saying: 'Greetings', he's using the word 'grace', he's saying 'peace' because that's what comes when the grace of God is shed abroad in your heart. Then from verses 4 through to 9 he's giving that prayer, the wishing of well to the person he's writing to. In this second section he's giving thanks to God on the behalf of these Corinthians for grace. Now are you asking yourself – I hope you are, because I was certainly asking this today – how can Paul be so positive, how can Paul be so thankful, when there's such trouble rife in this church, when they're divided, when there's so many abuses of holy things and so much immorality? How can he do it? This is how he can do it: because he knows and has a grasp of the character of his God. We'll see this, and we'll tease this out, but chiefly it is this: our God is a God of grace.

    In spite of their sin, they were these things…let's look down the list: one, citizens of heaven. Verse 2, first part: 'Unto the church of God which is at Corinth', the church of God which is at Corinth. Their identity was not 'Corinth', their identity was the fact that they were the church of God. Our identity as believers is not the city that we live in, the country that we belong to, it's not a certain preacher or theologian that we follow and adhere to, but our identity is with Jesus Christ for we are in His church. Every church, indeed every Christian, has two addresses: Corinth and Jesus Christ; Thorndyke Street, Templemore Avenue, and Jesus Christ. What this message is communicating to the Corinthians specifically, and to us today, is: no matter if you live in a little hellhole like Corinth, a place of immorality and godlessness, you can live in Jesus Christ a holy, a sanctified, and a spiritual life – and if it can be lived in Corinth it can be lived anywhere, do you agree?
    It's something that is in your life, that is a living reality where you realise that you are a saint, and you've been called to that reality.
    Now let's take take the plank out of of our own eye first….this debate is carnal and is about one individual exalting his superior knowledge over all who are engaging him…maybe we will see him on the throne at the right hand of God the Father…jeez

  • Fred said…
    There are over 20,000 different denominations of christianity,…

    Last time I checked [granted, a few yrs back], the Baptists were the largest denomination in America, and having about the largest number of sub-groups [Approx. 200+]: Southern Baptists, G.A.R.B., Independent Baptists,…all the way down to "Bapti-costals".

    Now if each of the Major "Christian" denominations had even somewhere close to 200 sub-denoms: 20,000/200 = 100?… 100 "Major" – "Christian" denominations?? Hmmm…

    Lesssee here, Anglican, Baptists, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Episcalopian, Methodist… how am I doing so far?… Oh, what the heck! Let's give a little leeway here and just throw in some of the "so-called Christians": "Christian" Scientists, Jay Hovah's Witlesses, Judaism, Mormononians, Muslims, Unitarians, mmm…mmm…somemore…Anton LeVey's 1st Church of Satan? Nah!
    Hmmm, what am I missing here?

    100 Major "Christian" denominations?? Is that where your "scientific logic" leads you… to a major stretch??

    "…**all** believing they are the only ones with the keys to heaven…"

    Uhhmmm… That's the "Fallacy of Composition" logic error! Not good "science". Not good "logic"!

    Apparently, you missed that part in your "Christian" walk-thru; that most of the Christian denominations recognise the fellowship of the Body of Christ, apart from non-essential doctrinal disagreements. So, no!… that doesn't fly — at all!

    But there was that other little niggling thing:

    "…when I was a christian…"

    Is that like when OBumr slipped up and said "my Muslim faith" and George Step-in-awful-stuff covered for him, prompting with a quick "Christian faith", and without skipping a beat, OBumr repeated "my Christian faith"???

    "…when I was a christian…" Hmmm!

    Didn't you mean to say, "I'm a tare, but I thought I was a Christian for a while."
    Jesus only mentions two 'Kinds" of seeds: Good seed and Bad seed.

    "Lord, Lord, didn't I…."

    And Jesus says: "I — never — knew — you: Depart from me." Matthew 7:23

    Well, since God can't lie… And this isn't "Rocket science" here so, according to true logic; that doesn't leave too many other places to point the finger…

    It's all completely understandable for some of us… We know exactly where 'human' logic fails:

  • Pt 2, Con't.
    1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." KJV

    Matthew 16:17 "Dude! None of those mental gears grinding around in your physical, 'earthly' mind could have EVER given you that Truthful answer…This came from my Father and you have received it, and you are blessed for it!" – DrNofog's International Paraphrased Version

    On the down side [and I do mean "down"], there is a principle established in the Word of God in Romans 1:18-32:

    As you reject, *measure by measure*, the Light of His infallible Word, YHVH gives you over, *measure by measure*, to your own darkened, human "logic", on a down-hill spiral that only ends in destruction.

    I think what you've overlooked with your "There are over 20,000 different denominations of christianity,…**all** believing they are the only ones with the keys to heaven…" is:…, and I can fully sympathize with you; 20,000!?! Wow! That can be overwhelmingly confusing. Which one is the one True religion?

    Coming out of a strong RCC background, I too was left wondering: Which one is the one True religion?

    Why not follow it all back to the source and find the first "One True Religion"?

    Now, unfortunately, I can't ask you to "turn the "page" and see…", nor should I chew up Nathan's web space with a long "scroll down to the bottom of the page and see", so I'll just have to toss it out here:

    What religion did Adam and Eve have? Selah… [pause for thought.]

    They didn't have a "religion"… They didn't need a "religion" because they had an actual, walking, talking, face to face relationship with the Living God. [Cain invented "religion"…the Great Hokus-pokus rigamarole to cover over his lack of relationship with God.]

    Now, if you had an "epiphany" [Matt. 16:16-17] that Jesus is, in fact, the only mediator between God and man [1 Tim. 2: 5], that He has "broken down the middle wall of partition between us" and God [Ephesians 2:14], and you had a little "metanoia", and asked Jesus to restore your relationship with the Father, you would never have to worry about hiding behind that "Hokus-pokus rigamarole" thingy anymore [which, BTW, includes the religion of Humanism and worshiping the flawed logic of fallen mankind], and He would give you a peace that would clear up that not-so-carefully disguised frustration in your life.

    May God bless you in your quest for Truth [which, last time I checked, He still likes to go by that name too….along with "Way", Life, Alpha-Omega, I AM, Resurrection, Wisdom, Emanuel, Messiah, and many, many others…actually quite a unique, fascinating Person to get to know]…

  • Good answer DrNoFog! And Fred, if you love history then why not do some Bible studies. Do some studies on Israel, for instance. Read Josephus or some books by Alfred Edersheim. Those are history books that have eternal value, because they reveal what God was doing then and what He is doing in our lives today. I pray that God will open your heart and use that mind to further His agenda not yours. You sound like someone who has been burned by religiousity. Hope you can get to the Truth, like DrNoFog said. Otherwise, you have no hope and this conversation on the history of the US is meaningless.

  • Hello everyone. So much since I last checked. Gideon, where are you? You're the only one here who uses the method of thinking that has brought light to mankind and discovers truth.

    Those of you who get excited that I used to be a christian sound like you're 12 years old. Please, let's be adults here. Who else but a former christian can know all it's aspects, from the groupthink mentality to the pathetic lies used by the godpedlers to justify you mailing that check to the emotional highs one gets when hallucinating. I know the story, as all of you do, but I also UNDERSTAND the story- and that's what I'm trying to share with you.

    Dr. NoFog, (another phd I assume?) Please look at this:
    Because trying to argue this fact with you would only make my head hurt. If you are a "doctor", where did you learn HOW to think? What does it matter whether 2 or 38,000 denominations exist? Can you you not see that a perfect god who would go through the trouble of revealing his word would do so in a way that EVERYONE would understand it without thousands of years of killing each others children?
    But please, don't let facts get in the way of your escapism. Let the whole world burn so you don't have to think for yourself, right?

    Fred more…..

  • Fred, so much anger against God and those who wish to follow him. It only seems to grow more as the years go on. In effect, you've become the embodiment of the title "The End of the American Experiment."

    Rules here are logical discussions about the topics, not flaming. Email me directly if you want to get it off your chest. I will need to delete the above posts and future ones if you can't stay to task.

  • Sorry folks, Nathan's pulled the plug, I guess the sheep can't get out of the barn today, just keep sending the checks in folks, nothing to see here. How christian Nathan, deleting posts to protect the racket. I'll take the 1st amendment from our Greco Roman nation anyday.


  • Nathan, there were no curse words, and no inappropriate sexual comments, so why not let the adults on this website read what I have to say, too many facts? Asking people to think? You didn't delete RF for wishing blindness on me, did you?
    Sandbox, what an appropriate description of this website.

    I'm very disappointed in you Nathan.


  • I didn't delete just your's, Fred, or even all of them, just the one's that were inflammatory. Really, you're not up to your usual level of good debate. You stormed in here kicking and punching and ranting incoherently. Use Gideon as a style example if you wish to continue to see your posts listed.

  • I qualified my statement with "Last time I checked [granted, a few yrs back]" and in America. However, in my haste I failed to consider the possibility that you were part of the "Think Globally, Act Locally" crowd, and for that I apologize.

    And, as you say, "What does it matter whether 2 or 38,000 denominations exist?", or the blurred definition of "denomination' for that matter, the point is moot as you missed the humor of "can't see the forest for the trees"; that being your "Fallacy of Composition" error: "…**all** believing they are the only ones with the keys to heaven…", which I answered already, and you did not.

    And, since I was only using the side issue as a "lead-in" to the real issue, I didn't feel it necessary to waste time digging for the "latest and greatest" statistical info on the point, especially if it involves having anything to do with discredited Wiki!
    Wiki has had a number of "WikiGates" in the past already, but they have outdone themselves in thoroughly shredding any facade of trustworthiness in their bias and suppression of truth in ClimateGate meets WikiGate:

    Wikibullies at work. The National Post exposes broad trust issues over Wikipedia climate information -WattsUpWithThat … co-founder William Connolley, who has “touched” 5,428 Wikipedia articles with his unique brand of RC centric editing…

    But for a lark, I did follow the ref-note to Christianity Today – General Statistics and Facts of Christianity, which in turn used stats from World Christian Encyclopedia (2001), by Barrett and Johnson; who said, "Such numbers are always debatable, but they're the best available. We don't really have any rivals," Barrett says. "That's the problem."

    ie. unrivaled = an unchallenged work… especially since Johnson [like you] has apparently "lost his anchor" in his definition: "This is a huge change, not just ethnically but in what Christianity is all about…There's no central, unifying narrative."

    But those of us who are born of the Good seed, who recognize the Bible as the Infallible, Inerrant Word of God know exactly what that means:

    Real "Christian" denominations hold to a central, unifying Gospel of the redeeming death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. Pseudo-Christian denominations have a "heteros" gospel which is not a "homos". Galatians 1:6-7

    Those of you who get excited that I used to be a christian sound like you're 12 years old. Please, let's be adults here. Who else but a former christian…

    God doesn't have any "ex-children", it ain't in His Word anywhere!

    If it wasn't so sad and soul threatening, it would be funny the level of self-delusion and denial that you are in! And you denigrate us as sounding "like you're 12 years old"

    I know it's a bitter pill for you, a blow to your ego, but there is only Good seed and Bad seed, Wheat and Tares, children of Light and children of darkness, children of God and children of the wicked one, and many more descriptions in His Word. Now we know that God can't lie:
    4 "…yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written…" Romans 3:4, so that doesn't bode well for your claim of being a "used to be a christian".

    And They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:19

  • Pt.2 Con't.
    Who else but a former christian can know all it's aspects…I know the story, as all of you do, but I also UNDERSTAND the story…"

    You "wear" former christian as though it's a rank of distinction and superior intellect, and you claim a lot to yourself: Who else… can know all it's aspects… but I also UNDERSTAND the story…"

    What a lofty pedestal! Who can attain unto it?!?
    And to think, all those poor Bible scholars who spent their whole lives searching the counsels of God…

    9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? – Jeremiah 17:9

    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools… Romans 1:21-22 Recognize this rung on the Romans 1:18-32, down-hill spiral??

    "…God resists the proud, but gives grace unto the humble." James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5

    "Can you you not see that a perfect god…" etc., etc. Yes I can; One who "…so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
    One who "…is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9, and who cares about lost far more than you can fathom!

    But He is also a Perfect God who respects freewill "choice" in a fair and open contest of the evidence vs. the First Slanderous Lie [Gen. 3:1-5], and says, "For this they are willingly ignorant…" – 2 Peter 3:5 [ei. They don't want to know!]

    "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God." Psalm 14:2

    Which do you prefer, a true love, or a "Stepford Wife"?? — Do you think God is any different? After all, He created you with enough smarts to see the difference.

    I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. – Proverbs 8:17

    1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons. 2 Such teachings come *through* hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron." – 1 Timothy 4:1-2

    And you shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart. – Jeremiah 29:13

    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

    For thus says the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek me, and you shall live. – Amos 5:4

    1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. -2 Peter 2:1-2

    Isaiah 35:8
    And a highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

    You can't get any "plainer" than that!

  • I am an outsider to the regulars who post here and when I came to this website, I was just browsing. I had no intentions of commenting on anything seeing that I have never blogged before anywhere, but I happened upon this particular blog. I had no idea how involved I would become. Please understand dear brothers and sisters in the Lord that I have ZERO tolerance for the wicked coming into a gathering of True Believers in Christ and attacking it with all kinds of deceit and trickery. Debating with the wicked is folly! I have no intentions of causing discord among the Real Brethren, The True Body of Christ.

    What I express here I express in the spirit of good fellowship among those who have the true faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture quotes are from the NIV.

    Can a person once be a born again Child of God and then turn his or hers back on Christ and then cease to be a Child of God? Looking at only 1 John 2:18-19 a person could come to the conclusion that all that left were never were genuine to begin with.
    1 John 2:18-19
    18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us

    Without a doubt this scripture is true to those it is applied to.

    Never the less, there are other scriptures to consider on this matter. Take what is said in Hebrews for instance.
    Hebrews 6:4-8
    4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

    Hey, they did taste the heavenly gift, share in the Holy Spirit and were one enlightened for God’s Word is true as stated above.

    Also consider what is written in 2 Peter.
    2 Peter 2:17-22
    17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

    Well the above states that they did escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We know that this is so because there again, God’s Word is true.

    end of part 1 of 2

  • part 2 of 2

    Also consider the following from 1 Corinthians.
    1 Corinthians 15:2
    By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    These are the direct Words of our Great God and Savior Jesus Christ Himself from the gospel of John.
    John 15:1-8
    1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

    So it is conditional, you have to “remain in Him.”

    For us who want to “remain in Him” there are some wonderful instructions on how to do so found in 1 Peter that will help keep us from falling.
    1 Peter 1:3-8
    3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
    5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    However, this is a warning verse for us as well.
    1 Peter 1:9
    But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

    I know that this is far off the original topic Dr. Reagan had in his article because this blog has taken an incredible twist. I hope that I am not breaking the rules of the sandbox too bad. Hey, I am very new to this sandbox and please overlook any spelling or grammar errors I may be guilty of.


  • To the Anonymous who said…

    "Whether it's Paul the apostle, or Sosthenes… our God is a God of grace…
    Our identity…two addresses: Corinth and Jesus Christ…

    As the Brits are wont to say: You are 'spot on'!
    Amen & Kudos!

  • Hello everyone, I've tried several times to post here, but Nathan keeps deleting them. He says I'm ranting incoherently, but I suspect it's more to do with the information provided. I was hoping that at least one of you could tell him to repost my deleted entries, but I am disappointed. I guess the "christian way" is to censor ideas you can't refute, then hallucinate that you've "won". If that is how you operate, reflect on that, if not, then tell him so.

    Drnofog, I'd like to discuss some of your points, one in particular that was pretty good, but if I'm going to be deleted anyway, it's pointless. Thanks for the comments, though.

    Same to you son of thunder, I'd like to tell you about my journey, (assuming you weren't being sarcastic), but lets not waste time, this is clearly not a website for real discussion, but a "sandbox" as Nathan describes it, since He won't let you see what I write, ( I had alot of information in the ones he deleted), but those who agree with him can fire away at me all day. I hope none of you think that's very "american".

    Sal, out of respect for your evidence production, I'd like to respond. (I did earlier but it was deleted)
    Read the link you provided. Then read this:

    I see drnofog thinks wiki is useless, so by all means go to any medical website instead.
    Now, if I'm wrong on this, then I apologize to Dr. Reagan, all of you, and your god Yahweh as well.

    Ok, ready, here we go:

    The explanation YOU provided describes lymph fluid, that is what would have exited Jesus' chest wound. Now:
    Lymph fluid is lymph fluid
    water is water
    lymph fluid is NOT water
    water is NOT lymph fluid
    so far so good, right?
    there is NO water around or in a human heart, it is lymph fluid.
    the bible says water came out of Jesus, which, as we know now, was really lymph fluid.
    Dr. Reagan says that WATER is the sign of a ruptured heart, but it's really lymph fluid, and as we established, lymph fluid IS NOT water. Which of course it then follows:
    An all knowing god would know the difference between the two liquids.
    A PHD would or should know the difference, but did not because he clearly made a statement which was not true. Gasoline kinda looks like water and lymph fluid too, but would you claim they are all the same?

    Viola, Dr Reagan was wrong, thus he lied to you.

    If you were a doctor who injected water into a patients heart you'd be charged with homicide, if you were a beverage company that put lymph fluid in water bottles you'd be sued and shut down, but a phd can sell this story and get away with it, and you folks pay for this?
    By all means, read your explanation again, then read what I just said, are you sure I'm still wrong?

    Anyway, if this somehow gets through Nathans' cowardly censorship, thanks for reading it. I'm unsubscribing from this site that Nathan put me on, so as not to trouble any of you again, obviously a high fence is the best solution here.

    Best wishes to all of you, Fred

  • Fred, I haven't deleted anything all weekend. Just the initial posts that embarrass you. Seems you're having trouble submitting. CTRL+C before you post just in case you're experiencing technical difficulties.

    Soooo, your conclusion that America is not founded on Christianity is that Jesus' heart spilled lymph instead of water?

  • Fred said…

    Drnofog, I'd like to discuss some of your points, one in particular that was pretty good, but if I'm going to be deleted
    anyway, it's pointless. Thanks for the comments, though.

    Not to worry! In my entire time I've been here I have not seen censorship.

    Even 'Postie' Mitchell, who 'cuts-n-pastes' miles [and I do mean "miles"], of old, repeated webspace, is allowed
    unfettered access here…

    I have no doubt that if it's civil, it will appear here. [BTW, What the #%$@!? did you say, anyway??]

    If not, in addition, My underlined "posted-name" links to my current email in my Paki-cave site. "I will rule the
    World!" – OBummer Sin Biden uber alles!

    He says I'm ranting incoherently…

    I see drnofog thinks wiki is useless, so by all means go to any medical website instead.

    Fred, you make unfounded connections and accusations!
    I thot it very humorous that, in the multi-front war that you have bitten off, I can see where your 'intel' has dropped off severely…and now you want to include me, as a 'poster-boy', in a medical debate that I am not, at all, a part of…?

    I never even hinted that "wiki is useless! They have accumulated a tremendous amount of 'worthy' Encyclopedic information, yet at the same time, the Spirit of Truth warns us to be wary…where they employ suspect, and 'biased' "information" and deliberate liars, as noted above.

    In Truth to you, [Still one of His Names..]

  • Doc NoFog,

    Here's a thort. What John saw coming out was a clear fluid which he called water. Fact is that even the docs often use the generic term "water" for tech stuff like pleural effusion. John faithfully reported what he saw. Anybody know what the tech term for "lymph fluid" was in John's language?


  • I feel sorry for Fred. He can argue all day but that does not change who he is. Only God can do that. He is not stupid and has obviously read the Scriptures and gone to great excess to try and prove them false but where has it gotten him. At least, those of us who believe have hope. He as none. Very sad, very sad indeed. What must he do to be happy? I don't imagine there is an answer. I am sure he has read what Solomon wrote in Eccl. It is all vanity.
    I do know that God can change the vilest sinner, which we all once were, in postion, before God and those of us who have received mercy and grace thru the Lord Jesus Christ, now stand redeemed.
    I only hope that that is Fred's destiny.

  • Fred,

    You prove you are a product of revisionist history. If I could give you a grade you would have gotten an F.

    Here are your answers and prove our country was founded in Christianity:

    1. One of the documents that influenced the Declaration of Independence, and Constitution was the Mayflower Compact. Please tell us what the first line in this compact is, and what the expressed purpose for the founding of Plymouth Colony was.

    It doesn't matter what your thoughts are on this Fred…
    First line: In the name of God Amen. Third line: Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the CHRISTIAN FAITH.

    2. George Washington's step-daughter was asked if he was a Christian following his passing by US gov records. What was her response?

    Wrong Fred, besides Martha Washington his step-daughter knew him best. Her answer was; If you are calling into question his Christianity, then, you might as well call into question his patriotism.

    You dislike this because it helps destroy your case.

    3. How did Thomas Jefferson sign and date his name when he was President of the US?

    He signed his name: Thomas Jefferson, In the year of our Lord Jesus Christ 180_

    4. From the early 1800's to the 1920's all freshman Congressman received a book put together by Thomas Jefferson, which was printed by the US. What was that book?

    Actually Fred this does make my case because this not originally called the Jefferson Bible. It was meant as a book of morals from Jesus Christ. The original title was The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. The title Jefferson Bible was given to it much later.

    5. Were Christian church services held in the US Gov building, started by Thomas Jefferson, and attended by the President and Congress, up until the mid 1870's?

    Yes they were, and they were held in other gov buildings too at the same time. Jefferson planted these services, and they were Christian services. Kinda weird for a deist, wouldn't you say?

    6. The Father of the Revolution, Samuel Adams is remembered for his faith in Christ, and often quoted from the Bible in congress. True or False?


  • Fred,

    Your example of Turkey is very poor. Turkey has a secular government, that does not mean that Islam hasn't influenced decisions made by that government. Turkey today is hardly a government you could point to as secular.

    Almost every one of the original 13 states had state religions, and they were all Christian churches. It was the Federal government that could not create a national church. This is the reason why church services held in the capital building were always non-denominational Christian services. Our founding government was not very secular. If you don't believe this, then, watch as Presidents, congressmen, and senators are sworn in. Up until very recently what has been used in every swearing in???

    If you would like to disagree further please look up the founding documents on WallBuilders. This organization has the largest collection of writings (outside of fed gov) from our founding fathers. Guess what? They talk about our Christian nation, and the devine hand of God that established us.

    Here is a direct link to their library.


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