The Christ in Prophecy Journal

The Abuse of Prophecy: Hijacked By Dominion Theology

Sermon on the Mound


What appears to be happening in the Evangelical Movement today is that it is being hijacked by people who are advocating the old liberal Social Gospel together with Dominion theology.

Increasingly, they talk about the responsibility of the Church to “restore God’s creation.” The mission of the Church, according to them is to take the world for Christ, solve all the world’s political, economic, social, and ecological problems, and then present a restored earth to Jesus.

In April of 2010 when Rick Warren unveiled his PEACE plan before 30,000 people at the Angels Baseball Stadium in what he called his “Sermon on the Mound,” he said:11

I’m looking at a stadium full of people who are telling God they will do whatever it takes to establish God’s Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.

The Truth

The truth is that the Church was never given the task of conquering the world for Christ or solving all the world’s political and social problems.

We were commanded to preach the Gospel and make disciples. And yes we were instructed to stand for righteousness.

But the restoration of God’s creation is a task that will be accomplished by Jesus when He returns to reign in glory and majesty from Mt. Zion in Jerusalem.

The sad thing is that the new apostasy concerning Bible prophecy is distracting people from the truth that we are living in the end times and that we are right on the threshold of the Tribulation when God will pour out His wrath on those who have rejected His grace, mercy and love.

Satan must be very pleased, because that is a truth he does not want anyone to know.

The formidable task we face as believers in God’s Prophetic Word is to stand firm and continue to urge the study of God’s Prophetic Word while proclaiming the truth of the Lord’s soon return to as many people as we can, as quickly as we can.


11) Don Koenig, “Rick Warren’s Global P.E.A.C.E. Plan is Dominionism,”

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ABOUT AUTHOR View all posts Author Website

Dr. David Reagan

Dr. David Reagan is the Founder and Evangelist Emeritus of Lamb & Lion Ministries. He is a life-long Bible student, teacher, and preacher and he led over 45 pilgrimages to Israel. Dr. Reagan was the host of the radio then television program Christ in Prophecy for nearly 40 years.

39 CommentsLeave a Comment

  • Hello Nathan

    Re. Rick Warren et al. Do you and/or Dr.Reagan disagree with, or ‘not have the same concerns’, as the Berean Call Ministries articles linked below? (There are audio’s to some of the transcripts.)
    Many thanks.





  • Dan koenig and Reinhardt Bonnke(sp?) are awesome evangelists and have very deep and wonderful teachings. I like em both alot!
    Personally im surprised prophecy is so disrespected by so called Christians. Tony Campolo said on a program i saw the other day where he was speaking to young people……….. why bother planning 4 years of college and wasting all that money on an uncertain future when u could instead carry out the red letters of the bible and go help the less fortunate. Im paraphrasing of course but thats real close. I couldnt believe he said that.

  • What should our prayers be for believers in Christ that do not believe in prophecy, end times, the true doctrine? It is making me sick of spirit and feeling helpless. As Christians we are to spread the True Gospel-it looks like we even have to spread it to our brethren in our churches.( God forbid.) When the Rapture happens so many 'churches' will still be going on and the delusion of where certain people have gone will be preached I'm sure far and wide. I'm feeling a sorrow in my spirit and must stop for my eyes have truely turned to tears. Come Lord Jesus and teach your sheep.

  • Dr Reagan said “…The truth is that the Church was never given the task of conquering the world for Christ or solving all the world's political and social problems.
    We were commanded to preach the Gospel and make disciples. And yes we were instructed to stand for righteousness.
    But the restoration of God's creation is a task that will be accomplished by Jesus when He returns to reign in glory and majesty from Mt. Zion in Jerusalem…”

    Dr Reagan has succinctly stated the Truth.

    Rick Warren’s ‘Social Gospel’ is what I refer to as ‘The Judas Syndrome’ based on John 12:1-7.
    Then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil.
    4 But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said, 5 “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.
    7 But Jesus said, “Let her alone; she has kept this for the day of My burial. 8 For the poor you have with you always, but Me you do not have always.”

    The Social Gospel is based on the lie that the Kingdom was inaugurated at the cross, feebly referred to as ‘already but not yet’ by the newly formed method of interpretation of so called ‘Progressive Dispensationalism’. This is totally false, the New Covenant was RATIFIED at the cross and the Kingdom still awaits the return of the Son of David when The Father gives the throne to Him. Presently, Jesus is our intercessor, our High Priest seated on the right hand of the FATHERS THRONE in heaven – not on the earthly throne of David.

    The earthly Messianic Kingdom was APPROVED at the death and resurrection of Christ but He, as rightful King, has yet to return to earth to initiate His Kingdom rule. Before He can return in Glory He will first have to take back from Satan the authority to rule the earth that he tricked from Adam. The Scroll is handed to Jesus in the Revelation as the ONLY ONE who can break its seals. When the 70th Week is accomplished, it is only then that Jesus will return as conquering and rightful heir to David’s throne in Jerusalem. Until then, the earthly Kingdom of God does not yet exist – but Rick Warren has the Church deceived into trying to bring earth to order in readiness for the return of Jesus.

    Unless the Lord builds the House, they labour in vain that build it and Jesus said “I will build…”

    Satan knows his time is nearly up, he also knows he cannot prevent his overthrow, so instead he is on a mission of manic deception to do as much hurt to the Church as he possibly can, and men like Rick Warren are his little helpers. Like Judas, Satan isn’t in the least bit concerned for the poor of earth, the costly perfume used to anoint Jesus in an act of perfect fellowship, adoration and worship could be put to ‘better’ use, bringing harm to the plans and purposes of God. Apart from the money he would gain, what would Judas get out of the value of the perfume – man’s approval and admiration, a power kick for being so merciful to the poor among them. THAT is all that Rick Warren and Co will get out of the Purpose Drivel, S.S. and Emergent apostate church – mans acclaim, money, fame, power, notoriety… !

    IF Rick Warren and Co. are genuine believers (only God knows) then all their ‘kingdom’ will be judged at the Bema then chucked in the fire and burnt for the rubbish it is. IF they aren’t genuine believers – then they had better make the most of their ‘kingdom’ – because I wouldn’t be in their shoes standing before the Great White Throne for all the tea in China, as it will be they, who are chucked in the fire and burned – eternally!


  • EI
    I love your comparison of Mary and oil and Judas. I like to think everyone that has the True Gospel is like Mary anointing the feet of Jesus. And when his feet touch the mtn. all will know the truth.

    The thieves steal so much more than money just as Judas tried to steal the very life of Jesus. My hope is that the brethren in these apostate situations have the true Jesus inspite of their preachers and thus will also be anointed with the cleansing blood of Jesus.

    God Bless!

  • God bless you Friend 🙂

    I have been re-studying about the Kingdom, making certain of my Scriptural facts. I have been so encouraged – again- that I wanted to share it with y’all. I have roughly typed out part of a video message on Hebrews chapter 1 and why the study of prophecy is SO important. It is quite technical, but bear with it (it’s great) and hear what he says about the NEED to study prophecy.

    The Session and the Kingdom (16B) by Dr.Robert Dean of Dean Ministries

    Quote: “…Getting to the Session or Ascension of Christ underlies the whole of Hebrews, the Ascension or Session is alluded to in almost every chapter; and every chapter or division in the book there is some sort of allusion to the Session. This is the foremost thinking of the writer of Hebrews. He is encouraging these Hebrews to hold on in their Christian life, no matter what the overt conditions may be, or the difficulties that life may give at times – no matter what the test of temptation to ‘bail out’ of the Christian life and live under their own terms and conditions instead of the ‘pressure cooker’ of the Christian life. Hang on in there, because there are long term consequences, we aren’t just living for today but in terms of our ETERNAL DESTINY.


    That is significant!!! If we don’t have a proper understanding of eschatology and all it mentions, you can’t have a personal sense of your eternal destiny, because that is where we are headed. When you look into the OT and the passages that give us so much of fulfilled prophecy in Isaiah, Jeremiah Ezekiel Daniel Zephaniah Zechariah … that talk so much of the Day of the Lord, the judgment on Israel, and everything that is going on in the future, given to them in times of national crises when the country is on the verge of being defeated by the invasion of foreign armies . It is given to comfort Israel with the reality that in spite of the fact that everything that is in chaos right now, the fact is that Jesus Christ controls ALL of history and God will ultimately fulfil all His promises to Israel.

    Even though right now, in YOUR situation, everything looks out of control, things are chaotic and you may lose everything you have – nevertheless God has not lost control, and God is going to fulfil His purposes in the end. THAT is a tremendous message of comfort; so one of the reasons to study prophecy is because it gives us comfort and stability in times of personal crisis, whatever that time may be…”

    Added thought: Genesis is also a prophetic book, more than, or at least as much as Revelation is prophetic. Given all the many Books that contain prophecy, just how many verses in the Bible are allowed by Rick Warren’s mentoring? Reading the Bible must to him must seem like reading an exciting ‘who done it’ when all the exciting bits are missing.

    What folly!


  • This is off topic, yet for those of you that pay particular attention to the heavens, consider the words of our Lord, "Look up for your redemption draws nigh". All of you will notice a conjunction taking place between Jupiter (King) and Venus (Virgin), this is taking place in the constellation Aries (Ram or Lamb)! It is interesting to note that a professor researching the biblical account of the Star of Bethlehem discovered a coin depicting a similar arrangement in 6 BC with a picture of Aries (Ram) and a Bright Star in the background giving prominence to a spetacular event taking place in the heavens!

    I am not sure what all this means, other than the fact that the stars of the heavens were created for signs, for this reason even the Magi were able to locate the birth of the King of Kings. The positioning of the planet Mars (War) will at the time of the conjunction be in Leo (Lion), as it is now. I simply find it fascinating and one can not miss the Bright and Morning Star (Venus) as it is accompanied by Jupiter in the night sky drawing closer and closer together! Is it coincidence, well, I will let you be the judge of that!

  • Sue…thought of you while reading this:

    The British government believes that Christians do not have the right to wear a crucifix at work because the wearing the cross is not a “requirement of the faith.”
    That’s the position the government is taking in a case pitting British Airways against two women who claimed they were punished for refusing to take off their religious symbols.

    Nadia Eweida and Shirley Chaplin claim they were discriminated against after British Airways banned them from wearing a cross and a crucifix.

    The European Court of Human Right will determine if the right to wear a cross is protected under the European Convention on Human Rights.

    The Sunday Telegraph reported that the government will argue that employees can not only ban the wearing of the cross, but they can also fire workers who insist on doing so.

    That position has sparked outrage across Great Britain. Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, accused the government of “dictating” to Christians and said it was an example of Christianity becoming sidelined.
    “The irony is that when governments and courts dictate to Christians that the cross is a matter of insignificance, it becomes an even more important symbol and express of our faith,” Lord Carey told The Daily Telegraph.

    Andrea Williams, the director of the Christian Legal Centre, said it was simply one more example of the British government and courts cracking down on Christians.
    “In recent months the courts have refused to recognize the wearing of a cross, belief in marriage between a man and a woman and Sundays as a day of worship as ‘core’ expressions of the Christian faith,” she told The Daily Telegraph. “What next? Will our courts overrule the Ten Commandments?”

  • I read this article and this scripture popped in my head.

    ….Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefor that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her. Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. Luke 10:38-42. Mary was Listening to Jesus. Learning…Giving his teachings undivided attention. Martha was serving…trying to show her worth to Jesus by works…At least that's my take. We all know what Jesus thought was more important.

    Great article Dr Reagan:)

  • Hello Billy
    The Purpose Driven church folk won't have a problem with the cross being displayed, they have banned them already as being a 'put off' to the 'un-churched' i.e. the lost.

    Although I have owned a cross and chain since a small child, I never felt the need to actually wear it. That is until 10 years ago after 9/11. That was just before my mother in law died, and I bought one to wear to her funeral and, because we have two Mosques I decided to start wearing one as my 'silent witness'. In town one day, a large, mad eyed Muslim woman took a swing at me because of it – inexplicably she missed – had she made contact with my head I would have been a while getting up again.
    Since then, and especially since my son became 'purpose driven', I am rarely without it in public. It isn't very big, quite small and plain (NOT a crucifix) but being gold it 'shunkles' well as the light catches it. When folk talk to me, I notice their eyes are always drawn to the little cross around my neck. I have noticed all my grandchildren seem fascinated by it, even the babies, so PD son may not let me speak, but the cross speaks silently about the sacrifice Jesus made for us at Calvary. If I was now employed, I would definitely kick up a fuss if banned from wearing it. The cross is an offence to the perishing!

    I am not even remotely superstitious; I don't think the piece of metal will help me in any way. It is what it represents that is so important to me these days.

  • Sue,

    I wear ties at work with the "fish" and one with little crosses. At first the ties were subtle, but I did get one with some quite big and obvious "fish" on it.

    Since I work in the field with the public for a city government, I wasn't sure if someone would object with the old "separation of church and state" complaint (even though there is no such thing).

    But to my surprise, I actually get a lot of compliments on my ties. Quite a lot in fact. No one ever complimented my secular ties. But my Christian ties are very well recieved.

  • Hello DrNofog

    Seeing as you asked so nicely, yer tiz 🙂

    Nathan said “…Generally, our ministry doesn't have too much of an issue with Rick Warren as other ministries have, but there have been some warning signs as of late that we as Christians have to be alert to…”

    Before I forget Joyce Meyer is WOF!

    Rick Warren expunges Bible prophecy.
    Purpose Driven considers the Jews have no right to Israel.
    Rick Warren censors The Gospel being told to the unsaved and shields them from ‘negatives’ such as sin and hell.
    The Purpose Driven literature is UN-Biblical i.e he falsifies Scripture. Have you read the ‘small print’ and checked it against a literal translation like the New American Standard?

    I have been trying to show why L&L SHOULD have a big issue with Rick Warren based on his abuse and misuse of Scripture. L&L must beware of giving Rick Warren’s literature any credence whatsoever to avoid leading people into Rick Warrens apostate ‘church’.
    This is a well established ‘alert’ and not ‘of late’!

    Bob DeWaay has also written about ‘Purpose Driven’ in his valuable book “Redifining Christianity” He also has audio on Rick Warrens redefinition of Christianity.


    “A Berean’s Discernment Tool for the Purpose Driven Life” by Pastor Bob DeWaay

    The final PDF “Further Reading on Becoming a Berean.

    “… the book was frustrating because so many times it would say ‘The Bible says…’ and then cite something I had never heard before, and I have been teaching the Bible for thirty years. Since there was no chapter and book reference on the page of the citation … I had to follow the footnotes to the end of the book, try to remember which day I was on … another trip back to the main text to find the day…read something like “Ephesians 1:5 TEV… get out the literal New American Standard …go back to the citation to see if the literal translation supported the point he was trying to make.

    This process was tedious … the DANGER…looking up…hundreds of citations from dozens of translations and paraphrases , most people would not be Berean’s but merely accept that the Bible says what Warren claims it says and ASSUME it supports the point he is making. THIS IS DANGEROUS. There are MANY TIMES that searching the Scriptures like the Berean’s would show that MANY OF THE CLAIMS ARE NOT BIBLICAL…”

    …What happens then is the paraphrase changes the meaning, we do not have the Bible speaking to us at all. Pastors who teach from bad paraphrases like THE MESSAGE insure that their members will have great difficulty learning or growing in their knowledge of the Bible. They will be left in a state of perpetual infancy and unable to become Berean’s… The Purpose Driven Life makes HEAVY use of paraphrases, particularly THE MESSAGE… the Purpose Driven Life OFTEN CITES PASSAGES WHERE THE MEANING IS CHANGED CONSIDERABLY… A bad paraphrase obscures the meaning rather than clarifies it. This is often the case when The Purpose Driven Life uses a paraphrase…”


    Chafer Seminary’s book review on Rick Warrens ‘Purpose Driven church’ by Dr. Stephen Lewis Professor of Church History.

  • Hello DrNofog

    I thought you may be interested in hearing an audio on Pirate Christian Radio as CEO’s are trained as Cult leaders for Purpose Driven. It left me breathless because I realised I had walked bang smack into an exceedingly devious – nay devilish ‘set up’ when I first ‘spoke’ (loudly) to my son over his entrapment in Purpose Driven – or Seeker Sensitive – even Emerging,same difference as they are each a level of a sinister mystic pyramid system.

    The site is Appraising Ministries by Pastor-Teacher Ken Silva and the radio link is toward the bottom of the page.


    Must post a little for Susie’s sake. 🙂

    “…Warren, Bob Buford and Bill Hybels are the Druckerite “trinity”. All three of these men were personally mentored by the late business guru Peter Drucker (unsaved, New Age mystic) and these three men more than any others are responsible for innovating the church by purposely changing congregations from a pastoral leadership model to a CEO / Innovative Change Agent leadership model…”

    “…These Druckerite, vision-casting, CEO-leader, so-called pastors—they’re not—‘there’s no such thing as valid criticism or a godly critic’; and what does this come back to? Well, this comes back to what we’ve reviewed here at Fighting for the Faith, from the Church Transitions seminar—put on by Dan Southerland—who, by the way, was really kind of the official Purpose Driven church transition guy.
    Their seminar was the thing that Saddleback would point to, as far as training pastors to basically change their church from being a place where God’s sheep were being fed with God’s Word, to basically entertaining goats.

    Listen below as Rosebrough then goes on to thoroughly destroy, biblically, the central premise of the whole of the Seeker Driven/Purpose Driven movement in this segment of his FftF program."

  • Does anyone know anything about the documentary "Beware of Christians"?

    I have a negative view just from the title…but I really don't know much about it.

  • Sue, thank u for thinkin of me:) i will look at the site u listed tonite. I have two questions for u!!! First, i dont no much about joyce meyer, but what does WOF srand for?
    And secondly…. all these yrs i thot we enjoyed the marriage supper during the trib after bema. Can u straighgen me out on that if its incorrect?
    Thank u!!!

  • Hello Susie 🙂

    Nearly right! The Marriage itself takes place in heaven when Jesus takes His Bride into the place He has prepared for her in the Father’s House. The Feast takes place on earth, after the seven year Tribulation. The ‘guests’ won’t be available until after Jesus has ended A/c rule and won back the earth. These will include the Resurrected O.T. Saints and the Tribulation Saints who will also assist Jesus in His rule over the Messianic Kingdom in the millennium. I think these are the Brides attendants in the Jewish Wedding analogy? I’m not sure, but I think the rescued, living believers will also attend. (Parable of the 10 Virgins)

    WOF means Word Of Faith. It’s faith in faith subjectively instead of faith in God’s Word objectively – Jesus is The Word! Another term is ‘name it and claim it’ or even ‘blab it and grab it’.

    I am looking forward to meeting you and the others after we are shown to our rooms in Glory. Then we will understand ALL the things that puzzle us down here.

    God bless and keep y’all safe and alerted, for the times are evil.
    Contend earnestly for THE Faith – ONCE delivered to the Saints (no new revelation) that’s how we know Rick Warren and Co. ‘visions from god’ are spiritual adultery. The visible church behaves like a harlot – BUT – the IN-visible Church/Bride remains glorious, dressed in the Garment of His Righteousness.


  • Thanks sue! That is so exciting! It makes my spirit sing just thinking of that glorious time!
    so… when we r raptured… i am guessing that means it will take 7 years to present us each to the Father and proceed with the works judgement of the redeemed!?? I should already know this but every day i learn….. and every day i want to know more. 🙂
    My dear friends pls pray for me and my son and his girlfriend. (Nick and steph). I am meeting her today and i am in prayer that the Holy Spirit may have His way and that these kids will be drawn in by His love to an everlasting relationship with our precious Lord and Savior. Thank u Father in Jesus' name. 🙂

  • Sue! Im sorry for my dumb question! I re read ur post and i see my answer is that the wedding is going to be taking place!!! AWESOME! i wonder what THAT will be like! I was trying to get my mind around what would take seven yrs.. as i have had nay-sayers claim the rap couldnt be pre trib cuz that 7 yrs made no sense to them… their arguement being that "no supper would last 7 yrs"

  • @Rodney, your post made me stop and look longer at Venus and Jupiter last night and then pull out my "Bethlehem Star" DVD. With the Middle East about to blow up and eventually set into motion so many end time events, I've got to consider the possible significance of this astronomical event more.

  • Susie,

    Remember, the 7 year Tribulation begins with the signing of the treaty between the antichrist and Irsael, not the Rapture.

    We may be in Heaven after the Rapture for more than 7 years before we return to Earth with Jesus.

  • Thanks billy.. ur right… i guess i "assumed" we would go pretty close to the treaty signing event… heck! I am just so excited.. feeling like its soooooo close! 🙂

  • Interesting that the images coming out of Afghanistan protests now are not of the Afghans burning a U.S. flag as you normally would see.

    The image I've been seeing all day is the Afghans burning a big cross, the symbol of Christians, not the U.S.

    This is history on a Biblically scale before our eyes…a preview of how it will look when the two witnesses are in Israel, how they will be killed and displayed on TV for all the world to see. Probably they'll be burning crosses then, too, along with their gift giving celebration.

    Like the majority in the current poll on, just get me outta here!

    (And, like in the days of Noah, the signs of the times are ignored by the world as they go on marrying and merrying)

  • I am wondering.. is there any remarkable reason that we (america) have sent the u.s.s. enterprise to the mediteranian sea? Or is that just normal protocol??????
    Billy that is quite disturbing about afganistan. I saw them burning effigy of obama too.

  • Nathan, glad I could provide something interesting to ponder, I agree that it could be significant, funny thing is, pointing this out to neighbors, friends, and family who for whatever reason never look up. I am always looking up at night, me and my wife enjoy sitting on the back porch drinking a cup of coffee and watching the shooting stars!

  • I'm curious about your thoughts regarding the following. I may not agree or understand everything Rick Warren is doing, but I'm constantly reminded of these verses:

    Tit 3:1-2 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, (2) to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. Everyone except Rick Warren apparently.

    1Co 1:10-13 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (11) For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. (12) Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." (13) Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

    It is interesting to me that in the face of these contentions, Paul addresses the contenders, and not the leaders. I can picture so clearly the Corinthians saying, “I follow Apollos because that Cephas is teaching heresy, he’s associating with heathen!”. Substitute Cephas with Rick Warren…. The sad fact is I’m sure that most of the Corinthians, like their counterparts today, are acting out based on hearsay or the word of their peers. Anyway you look at it, these contentions are signs of carnality and disrespect.

    1Co 3:1-7 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. (2) I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; (3) for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? (4) For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal? (5) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? (6) I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. (7) So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

  • Stan,

    The issue isn't Christians saying "I'm of Dr. Reagan" or "I'm of Rick Warren" or "I'm of Joyce Meyers". We are united in Christ and no one is dividing their loyalties among any of those I mentioned so your points don't make sense to me.

    The point of the article was Dr. Reagan taking Rick Warren, Tony Campolo, Bill Moyers and the rest to task over what he described as "particularly disturbing…attacks on Bible Prophecy that are coming today from so-called Evangelicals."

    In my opinion, his motivation was not to divide but to educate.

  • Here are a couple thoughts I have about this Billy, and Nathan if you are reading.

    I was not suggesting that the motivation behind Lamb and Lion Ministries was to bring division, and I agree that education is good.

    That being said, I think we could agree that what is being said is more of the meat variety instead of the milk variety, and it is being diseminated indescrietely to those who are more mature as well as babes. Paul was more descriete apparently with the Corinthians, per 1CO 3:1-7.

    While I don't see anything wrong with this type of education on it's own, it is a problems to feed this type of stuff to babes in Christ, and that is evident by the "firestorms" that erupt in the aftermath. Babes in Christ lack the knowlege to resist the urge to jump on this second hand bandwagon, they do not test for themselves, they do not put their response in context of the whole Word. What Babes do do is take Rick Warren, Tony Campolo, Bill Moyers and the rest to task as a result of these articles, and that is evidence of their carnality.

    See these statements from this post, for example, "Satan knows his time is nearly up, he also knows he cannot prevent his overthrow, so instead he is on a mission of manic deception to do as much hurt to the Church as he possibly can, and men like Rick Warren are his little helpers." and "IF Rick Warren and Co. are genuine believers (only God knows) then all their ‘kingdom’ will be judged at the Bema then chucked in the fire and burnt for the rubbish it is. IF they aren’t genuine believers – then they had better make the most of their ‘kingdom’ – because I wouldn’t be in their shoes standing before the Great White Throne for all the tea in China, as it will be they, who are chucked in the fire and burned – eternally!"

    There really is no call for statements like this, and this is fairly representative, if not far more mild, of the vitrol this is dispensed towards our leaders whom are disagreed with, and to a fair degree, it is the result of meaty discourses fanning the flames of division amoungst those of us who are babes still in Christ.

    That there should be any statements about someone "IF" they believe something is a clear red flag. That we should speak about others is wrong, but to speak about others based on "IF" they believe something is truly a red flag. There is ample evidence that Rick Warren is a genuine believer, and I have to believe his own words long before I'd trust anything any media outlet put out second hand, and this is something that the babes amoung us refuse to do, prefering instead to follow any second or third hand naysayer that tickles their ears.

    When we can clearly see that one of our leaders is a genuine believer, such as Rick Warren, that doesn't mean that we have to agree with everything they do. However, to speak disrespectfully or condemn what they are doing publicaly so that those that are babes amoung us begin to tear them up is surely born of the devil himself.

    So how are ministries like Lamb and Lion to handle these sorts of things? It is up to them, I can only point out that they appear to be contributing to the problem. Saying that they are not resposible for what babes do when choked on meat is not an excuse and not what Paul said. He said he didn't feed it to them. What seems to be needed is a balance, we need teaching to the babes on how to handle this sort of information without thier following a course of condemnation against their fellow believers. All this condemnation is getting out of hand, and it appears that the meat feeders are blind to it.

    Respectfully, that is my point.

  • Well articulated, Stan! If it helps, L&L's main audience is the fully mature believers in Christ – the "meat eaters" so to speak. Just read the depths of some of these posts. Bible prophecy tends to attract a more studious crowd, or the flip side those who engage in wild speculation and biblical spiritualizations. Both camps are already suspicious of every Bible teacher, even if for different reasons.

    I agree that we spend more time shooting at fellow believers than dealing with the real non-Christian threats. To "strain a gnat," so to speak. I think of it as "spiritual cannibalism."

    I, too, believe Rick Warren is generally saved. He's made legitimate professions of faith and produced great spiritual fruit, only possible by the Holy Spirit. That being said, even the best of us Christians can get spiritually off track, and those who have huge influences can do the most damage to the "milk" Christians. That's why Christians are also called to raise these matters to attention, and that's why Pastor Warren get's so much attention. His doctrinal wanderings and his huge influence cause him to be brought up in Christian circles most often, and rightly so.

  • Nathan said “I agree that we spend more time shooting at fellow believers than dealing with the real non-Christian threats. To "strain a gnat," so to speak. I think of it as "spiritual cannibalism."

    Matt7:15-23 (Jesus said) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Was Jesus being a ‘spiritual cannibal’ when He ‘strained’ at the spiritual leaders, the Scribes and Pharisees even calling them a ‘brood of snakes’?

    Acts 20: 29,30.For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

    Was Paul a ‘spiritual cannibal’ when He strenuously warned the Church against false brethren?

    Real non-Christian threats are out and out ‘wild beasts’; they are exactly what they seem – wild and beastly – red of tooth and claw. You know exactly what to expect from a wolf.

    ‘Fellow believers’ are anything but gnats as from AMONG YOUR OWNSELVES comes the wolf– DECKED OUT TO APPEAR LIKE A SHEEP.

    It is the wolf’s diet to eat sheep, and the sheep are being gobbled up wholesale by the sons of Judas camouflaged as fellow believers who cry ‘Lord! Lord look at what I have done in your name’.

    These ‘wolves’ are not irritating ‘gnat’s, they are of the spirit of anti-christ who has rapidly gained ground – the flock of Jesus Christ are positively surrounded, and just like the nature of a wolf, they pick off the young and weak ‘lambs’ first.

    A growing threat to the flock now are the ‘appeasement sheep’, these sheep put on wolves clothing to pacify the brutes using fleshly love by calling evil good and good evil. These are the ‘spiritual cannibals’ who straddle both camps happy to sacrifice any protesting sheep for the sake of ‘peace’.

    2Peter2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

    2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
    3. By COVETNOUS they will EXPLOIT you with DECEPTIVE WORDS; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

    Was Peter a ‘spiritual cannibal’ for also warning against false brethren, false teachers, false prophets and their destructive heresies?

  • Nathan said ‘…Spiritual cannibal?…’

    I can only think you refer to Galatians 5:15 “But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another”.

    If so then the context of ‘biting and devouring’ rests with the battle fought between Legalists, Libertarians and the lusts of the flesh. One thinks their keeping of the law is an advantage to them in addition to what the cross has done. Then there are those who take the liberty we have in Christ and use it as a license to sin. Add to that the lusting of the flesh and it’s that which produces what you seem to be calling ‘spiritual cannibalism’?
    This is the CONTEXT of biting and devouring and consuming one another.

    This has NOTHING to do with the essential commandment to CONTEND EARNESTLY for the Faith Jude 1:3; to warn the unwary of the wolves in sheep’s clothing and all the lies and deceit they promote.
    In 1Tim5:20 the Apostle Paul instructed Timothy “Them that sin REBUKE BEFORE ALL, that others also may fear”.

    1Tim4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, exhort with all longsuffering and DOCTRINE.
    3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their OWN LUSTS shall they heap to themselves teachers, having ITCHING EARS;

    Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
    For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision
    11.Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for FILTHY LUCRE’S SAKE.
    12.One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
    13.This witness is true. Wherefore REBUKE THEM SHARPLY, that they may be sound in the faith;

    The Scriptures don't 'pussy foot' around where deception is concerned.

    Rick Warren MAY be saved, but his ‘good works’ is not evidence that he is born again, anymore than his deception and heresies are evidence he is Not born again. Salvation does not come by works nor is salvation kept by good works.

    It’s by God’s Grace we are saved, through our faith, and salvation is the gift of God, not by works lest any should boast. We are kept by the power of God – not any works or lack of them, and need to remember that there is a big difference between ‘good works done in the flesh’ and those that are achieved by walking in the Holy Spirit. Remember what Jesus said to those crying ‘Lord, Lord…’ He will say ‘I never knew you’!

    Even the worst heathen knows how to do good to those he chooses to, and the heathen’s good works will not save him either. Man’s ‘good works’ are as filthy rags to the Lord of Glory!


  • Hello Nathan

    You have been extremely kind and supportive of me during a miserable period brought about by the invasion of Rick Warren’s false teachings come to the UK. You personally helped to keep my head above the waves that were swamping me; I shall always be grateful to you for that and I Praise The Lord for His provision of your kindness and grace.

    It must have been just over two years ago that I responded to your own articles in L&L warning against this serious error. Now L&L has done an 'about face' which will encourage the less able in the Word to see his New Age teachings, and psychology based 'counselling' methods, as acceptable, even ‘biblical’, where in fact it is a denial that God's inerrant Word is sufficient to counsel EVERY troubled soul. Jesus is THE Counsellor and He doesn’t require the deception of Freud and cronies to minister to the souls of His true Church.

    Psychology comes from the occult, it is not a 'science' because the mind/soul is not physical; it cannot be examined under a microscope. Illness is physical and affects the body; the brain is physical and can be injured; this is not true of the mind/soul which requires the application of God’s promises to life.

    A short time ago, you requested that I ‘keep L&L accountable’. The same has been asked of others here. Yet when concerns are raised they are abruptly dismissed or, more often, as in this situation, expressed concerns about L&L faulty practise is totally ignored. No reply, no acknowledgment – nothing! In other words the request to keep L&L accountable is an empty gesture meant only to appease. It is an ingenuous appeal.

    Excusing Purpose-Driven/Seeker Sensitive/ Emergent which has it roots based firmly in the occult is a compromise to allow the darkness to fellowship with the light, Christ to be solicited along with Belial, this is the mix that God abhors; it is sleeping with the enemy. We are instructed to ‘come apart’, NEVER to placate.

    The ONLY good thing about this compromise is that the prophesied apostasy is gathering momentum, just as Jesus and His Apostles warned, meaning the ever closer return of Jesus to quash all heresies.

    As much as I love you dear Nathan – and I really do; I can wait no longer for a reply to my statements from the start of this thread, as well as a previous thread of just over 2 weeks. From past experience here, I recognise that L&L is ‘set’ and not open to, or welcoming of any reasoning.

    There have always been things I consider L&L has got wrong, such as the denial of absolutly Eternal Security, or that the eternal lake of fire is not ‘forever’?! These things I have put to one side, but when the truth of the Gospel is put into jeopardy via Rick Warrens heresies – that I cannot be party to and have no choice but to ‘come apart’ from L&L.

    Thank you for past fellowship with you and ‘the beloved gang’. My love and appreciation is with you all and I leave each one of you with Jesus.


  • Allow me, if you will, to share: Matthew 7 seems to be a perfect chapter with which to address this phenomenah of Christians condeming each other as false prophets.

    Matthew 7:1-7 starts of with a whole section on judging others, and it contains a seeming contradiction, a command to make a what seems like a judgment to determine who the swine and dogs are.

    The word "judge" – Greek = Krino – contains the thought of "Properly distinguishing, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); so that by implication we would try, condemn, punish: – avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

    Clearly, this meaning of "judge" is the reverse of the intent of "Give not" or "neither cast" (v6), which dovetails with the definition of "discern", Greek = diakrino – to separate throughly, to withdraw from.

    Based on the original definitions, we are not to try, condemn, determine, call into question, etc, but we are to separate and withdraw.

    In v13-14, Jesus is teaching that He is the the only way to the Father, via a straight gate and narrow path. Other paths lead to destruction. It is in this context that He continues in v15 that we should beware of false prophets.

    In v15, the greek for "false prophet" is pseudoprophetes, and it means a pretended foreteller or religious imposter.

    Given the context of all of these verses, the implication here is that these false prophets are teaching a wide path, or another way to the Father than through Jesus. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and others of this type fall into this category.

    In keeping with the context of "pretended foreteller or religious imposter", Jesus continues that those teaching another way are as "ravening wolves in sheeps clothing". Both the false prophet and wolf examples imply intent to deceive and destroy, and per vs 13, this destruction comes about by people following another way than Jesus to the Father.

    Now, is Rick Warren or others teaching another way? Are they intentionally deceiving so as to destroy? That is the question that must be answered. This information is easily available via their own statements of faith on their websites. It can be determined by objective first hand observation of their own lives and ministries. It cannot be accurately observed by second hand hearsay and word of mouth, blogs and what have you, which is at risk of being a false witness.

    Rick Warren and others are clearly teaching that Jesus is the one and only way to the Father. He and they believe all the same things regarding salvation that the rest of us believe. There is ample evidence of this. They are not leading the sheep down a destructive path that leads to some other way to the Father.

    So what of these things which you and I might disagree with? Are they the issues which Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 7. Are they declaring another path to the Father other than Jesus. While there may be things we disagree with, they do not fall under the heading of deceiving the sheep into a destructive path other than Jesus is the way to the Father. To lump all issues we disagree with into the heading of "false prophet or false teachers" is way out of context, and puts you square under the microscope of vs 1-7.

    Rick Warren is a brother, a fellow believer in Jesus. He is not perfect, no one is except Jesus. His understanding of the Will of the Father will become perfect when we are resurrected, just like our understanding will. Judgment, calling him to question, condemning and damning him is un-biblical, and a characteristic of babes in Christ per 1Cor 3:1-7.

  • Sue, you've read L&L's position on Rick Warren and know our concerns are your concerns. Stan, you also know we agree that according to all biblical tests Rick Warren appears by all accounts to be saved.

    Sue, my point is separate from the above two arguments. My point is that as believers we spend too much time picking apart the body and not enough time evangelizing. As Jesus said in Mark 3:25, "If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand."

    We absolutely cannot stand as a godly example to the outside world if all they see is us attacking ourselves. What kind of army wins a war when they're only shooting at themselves?

    There is a place for pointing out "spies" among us. But, when that's all we do, even as far as some preachers who seem to think every Christian is suspect, then we are doing Satan's work and not the Lord's.

  • No Nathan, you are mistaken!

    It is men like Rick Warren who have moved the goalposts by the creation of their heresies. It is the Rick Warren’s who have caused the divisions with their double-minded contortions of Scripture, pleading innocence by waving their statements of faith but actually practising a New Age agenda.

    For this reason we have to contend earnestly for the true faith and expose the lies and aberrations for the sake of those who have a limited grasp on the whole council of God. For the sake of men like Stan, who reason from their own minds using inadequate word searches due to their inability, as yet, to interpret Scripture with Scripture! Who have yet to learn to walk by the Spirit of God so they are not taken in by the working of the flesh!

    Where we agree Nathan, is that Rick Warren blasphemes the ‘Spirit of prophecy’ who is Christ Jesus Himself, thus grieving the Holy Spirit by dismissing His prophetic Word as a waste of time!

    Where we NO LONGER agree concerns Rick Warrens corrupt teaching of another Jesus, another spirit and another gospel. Yet you declare that your only concern is with RW dismissing of prophecy.

    He may well be a brother, but he is a brother that has fallen from grace and is taking a multitude with him, and just as many believing his false gospel and going straight to hell.

    In standing against Rick Warren, I/we are NOT ‘picking apart the body’ because Rick Warrens Company is not THE Church, it is instead an apostate assembly of deceived and deceiving heretics in a masquerade going home to Rome; and just like the Papacy, RW claims to speak for the Church and that must be challenged in the same way that Luther challenged Rome in the reformation!

    Don’t you realise that Rick Warren is deconstructing the Church and taking us back into the dark ages by the pilfering of the True Gospel. As it is going, I can see the fires being lit again across the West for the burning of the Fundamentalists who refuse to be taken in by his deception and are speaking out; at the same time we preach the true Gospel of the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. By having faith in Him to save from Eternal death and the eternal torment of the lake of fire – how, by putting our faith/belief/trust In Him to give us the free gift of Eternal Life.


  • Part 2.

    The Word of God calls for us to deny SELF, to pick up our cross daily, and follow Him. Rick Warren denies Christ’s words and instructs with five ‘truths’ to boost a person’s SELF esteem. Rick Warren teaches, among other things, contrary to his statement of faith:

    1)We must accept ourselves because God accepts us unconditionally!

    That is the LIE of Universalism! There is a vitally important condition given before God can accept us. In recognising that we are lost sinners without an ounce of good in us, therefore we MUST put our faith in Christ to save from Eternal damnation. So God DOES NOT accept us unconditionally at all. To be accepted by God we have to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ – there is NO acceptance for unregenerate man without being Justified by faith. By Warren claiming there are no conditions for God to accept them, then that suggests that all people are accepted whether they believe the Gospel or not!

    2) WE need to love ourselves!

    THAT is exactly the trouble with each of us, we love ourselves without any encouragement. NO-one hates themselves except the mentally deranged. We are to love OTHERS as we would love ourselves, which is with the same care and consideration we have for our own well being. No one hates themselves, we keep ourselves with the utmost of attention.

    3) To be true to ourselves.

    That is not a Biblical instruction at all; that is a piece of Rick Warrens Godless, earthly wisdom. Paul said ‘I die daily’ the purpose of which is to die to self and to be true to God. We don’t need to get to know ourselves; the idea is to get to know God through diligence to His DOCTRINE in order to help put down SELF who is naught but a sin sick rebel; why ever would we need to be true to our fallen self.

    4) Forgive yourself!!!

    That is blatant, out and out false teaching. It is totally in contradiction to what we NEED to do, which is to recognise the fact that we are SINNERS! This knowledge will help us face up to the fact that what we need above all is GOD’S FORGIVENESS. SELF is an invalid, unrighteous judge and the Bible says that if we had our own way we would not ever be judged. SELF is unable to appeal to itself for forgiveness. It is GOD’S terms of judgment we need to know, by which, He is willing to forgive us.

    5)Believe in yourself!…
    ”It’s your choice’ RW says ‘You can believe in what others say about you or you can believe in yourself AS DOES GOD, who says that you are truly acceptable, loveable, valuable, capable’

    What utter, rotten lies! That is totally the opposite to what God says about mankind. Again, the very root of the problem with mankind is that we already trust in self and for that reason we MUST reject self and turn to God for His free offer of Justification on the CONDITION we recognise our need for a Saviour – who is JESUS CHRIST, and BELIEVE IN HIM to save and not our sinful self!

    Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
    11. There is none who understands; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD. (there’s no such things as ‘Seeker Sensitive’)
    12. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
    13. "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips";
    14. "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness
    15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    16. Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    17. And the way of peace they have not known."
    18. "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
    23. for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


  • SUE!!!!! I no u werent talking to me …. but … nevertheless.. i agree with u 100%!! Im so glad yo see ur post!! Maranatha! I know one thing for sure… we r going to meet very soon Praise the living God!!!!!!


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