The Christ in Prophecy Journal

Church in the End Times: Hope and Exhortation


There is much talk going around these days about how unified, triumphant and glorious the Church will be in the end times right before the return of Jesus, but it does not correspond with the state that the Church is in today characterized by apostasy, heresy, cultism, and worldliness. Because the Bible says these characteristics will define the end time Church, the Church will come under judgment. But, there is hope.

The Latter Rain

Is there any good news about the Church in prophecy? Yes, there is. The incredibly good news is that the Bible prophesies a great pouring out of God’s Spirit in the end times to empower those who are receptive to stand against the onslaught of Satan.

The prophecy is found in Joel 2:28-30. Because this prophecy was quoted by Peter in his sermon on the Day of Pentecost to explain the phenomenon of tongues (Acts 2:14-21), many have assumed that it was fulfilled on that day. That assumption is erroneous.

The context before the passage (verses 18-27) makes it clear that there will be two outpourings of the Spirit (the “early and latter rain”) and that the final outpouring will occur after the Jews are regathered to their land and re-established as a nation. Also, the context after the passage (verses 31 & 32) indicates clearly that the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy will occur at the time of the Second Coming.

We have been in the period of the “latter rain” ever since the re-establishment of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948. The Spirit is being poured out, and the gifts of the spirit are being manifest in a way unparalleled since the First Century. The praise and worship of the Tabernacle of David are also being restored to the Church to further empower it for spiritual warfare.

This great anointing of the Spirit is producing a remnant that is immersed in the Word, committed to righteousness, crucified to self, dedicate to prayer, surrendered in worship, zealous for evangelism and yearning for the soon return of Jesus. It is this remnant that will usher in the Lord’s return on a cloud of praise.

A Modern Day Prophecy Concerning the Church

Printed below is an excerpt from a prophecy given by the late Stanley Frodsham, former editor of the Pentecostal Evangel. The prophecy was delivered at the Elim Bible Institute Summer Camp Meeting in 1965.

“When I visit My people in mighty revival power, it is to prepare them for the darkness ahead…Take heed to yourselves lest you be puffed up and think that you have arrived. Many shall be puffed up as in the olden days…

Listen to the messengers, but do not hold men’s persons in admiration. For many whom I shall anoint mightily, with signs and miracles, shall become lifted up and shall fall by the wayside. I do not do this willingly; I have made provision that they might stand. I call many into this ministry and equip them; but remember that many shall fall. They shall be like bright lights, and people shall delight in them. But they shall be taken over by deceiving spirits and shall lead many of My people away.

Hearken diligently concerning these things, for in the last days shall come seducing spirits that shall turn many of My anointed ones away. Many shall fall through divers lusts and because of sin abounding…

I warn you to search the Scriptures diligently concerning these last days, for the things that are written shall indeed be made manifest. There shall come deceivers among My people in increasing numbers who shall speak for the truth and shall gain the favor of the people. For the people shall examine the Scriptures and say, ‘What these men say is true.’ Then when they have gained the hearts of the people, then and then only shall they bring out these wrong doctrines. Therefore, I say that you should not give your hearts to men, nor hold people’s persons in admiration. For by these very persons shall Satan enter into My people. Watch for seducers!

Be not deceived, for the deceiver will first work to gain the hearts of many, and then he shall bring forth his insidious doctrines. You cannot discern those that are of Me and those that are not of Me when they start to preach. But seek Me constantly, and then when these doctrines are brought out you shall have a witness in your heart that these are not of Me.

The minister of righteousness shall be on this wise: his life shall agree with the word and his lips shall give forth that which is wholly true, and it will be no mixture. When the mixture appears, then you will know he is not a minister of righteousness. The deceivers speak first the truth and then error to cover their own sins which they love…

I desire you to be firmly established in My Word and not in the personalities of men that you will not be moved as so many shall be moved… Diligently inquire of Me when you hear something that you have not seen in the Word, and do not hold people’s persons in admiration, for it is by this very method that Satan will destroy many of My people.”

An interesting thing about this prophecy is that it was published in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, in October 1987. Later on, the problems encountered in his life and ministry were to serve as a partial fulfillment of the prophecy.

The message is clear. We must all be on guard spiritually. None of us is immune to deception. Everything must be tested by the Word. If a doctrine fails the test of Scripture, it is to be rejected, regardless of who is teaching it. Our trust is to be placed in the Word and not in men.

We must stop chasing after men and miracles. A fixation on either will result in deception. False teachers can appear as angels of light. Miracles can be performed by the power of Satan. Our eyes are to be fixed on Jesus, and Him only. Our authority in all things is to be His Word.

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ABOUT AUTHOR View all posts Author Website

Dr. David Reagan

Dr. David Reagan is the Founder and Evangelist Emeritus of Lamb & Lion Ministries. He is a life-long Bible student, teacher, and preacher and he led over 45 pilgrimages to Israel. Dr. Reagan was the host of the radio then television program Christ in Prophecy for nearly 40 years.

54 CommentsLeave a Comment

  • What an awesome article! Makes me think of isaiah 55:11 (i think it is) ….. my word shall not return unto me void but will accomplish that which i please wherto i send it…

  • Israel is still a Jewish Nation in that they hold to waiting for the Messiah. How can they be having latter rain when they do not even believe in the Messiah? This makes no sense to me. Sure their are Jews for Jesus but the NATION is Jewish. The latter rain can only come ( i thought) to those coming to Christ. I really don't get what you're saying in this article.

  • It is an error to believe we are in the period of the "Latter Rain" as the Former Rain began on the Day of Pentecost! There were gathered many Jews' together on that day from every corner of the known world and by miracle of the Lord God did hear the Gospel message in their native tongue as it was declared by the Apostles.

    As the "Former Rain" or outpouring of the Holy Spirit empowered believers so will it be during the time of the Latter Rain when the Holy Spirit is again poured out upon the House of Israel to equip them to be ministers of the Gospel. This final outpouring will begin once the Church has been has participated in the Blessed Hope!

    The 144,000 Jewish messengers of the Gospel will be the initial portion of this "Latter Rain" or outpouring of the Holy Spirit! It is recorded to take place in the aftermath of the Gog/Magog battle in Ezekiel 39:29! This final outpouring begins just prior to the Time of Jacob's Trouble also known as the Tribulation!

    The condition of the Church will continue to worsen, leaving only a few alive and remaining in the faith, this final outpouring will not be provided to the existing Church but to the Tribulation Saints, regarding this the scriptures are clear! The Tabernacle of David is a reference to the actual Temple, though it seems Dr. Reagan is attempting to spiritualize it here!

  • Im glad u guys pointed that out! I didnt even notice it said.. we have been in the latter rain since 1948…. i agree with rodney that that is not true.

  • Right Rodney!!! L&L are mixing promises made for Israel with the Church the latter rain concerns Israel nothing to do with the church. Plus WHAT evidence of the gifts being poured out??? Doc Reagan is looking at the lying signs and wonders of the apostates that are predicted for the end time. Jesus even wonders if He will find any faith at all on earth when He comes back.
    Dr Reagan needs to give himself a shake and reread Scripture in their context with help from the Holy Spirit. Your sliding down a very slippery slope Doc, and not for the first time by a mile.

  • What a shame! The late William Branham started up this heresy of the Latter Rain Movement part of the ‘Manifest Son’s of God’ and the Kansas City ‘Prophets’. It started to invade the AoG but they stood against it in the 50’s as the heresy it was. Most of those stalwarts have gone to glory, so with them gone the AoG youth leaders, in their ignorance of the Bible, have embraced it along with Word of faith heresy. It’s the old discipleship/shepherding pyramid that has also been taken up by Rick Warren. At first the AoG resisted this end time apostasy, but Elim dived right in from the start. Now they are both down and dirty!

    Lamb and Lion are partners of very bad company as God’s continued ‘sifting’ has been revealing bit by bit over the past few months at least. Dr Reagan SAYS to interpret Scripture literally, but in fact is adding to Scripture by spiritualizing what he thinks he will, so he running with the hare and the hounds.

    Where are all the Watchmen he interviews, they should be warning him – unless they have become sucked in as well!
    Not glad about this reveal, feeling very sad, but it’s just as Jesus said it would be. 🙁 🙂


  • I jist wanna say… just because we r not in the latter rain yet…. doesnt mean the HS was poured out at pentecost. Miracles happen everyday and God has the power to heal and he does it all the time. The outpouring of the HS will happen near the second coming because we (born again) christians will have been removed from earth temporarily in the rapture. The gifts of the HS r given to believees at the descretion of the HS. Hopefully all the fruits will be evident as we mature in our walk with the Lord Jesus…. just my opinion, … love in Christ..:)

  • Sorry typo….. i meant… doesnt mean the HS was NOT poured out at pentecost. he didnt just come and then leave. He has been here and active in believers since pentecost

  • The "former rains" were for the Church (um, Pentecost, folks), then how can one say the "latter rains" don't involve the Church as well? Dr. Reagan accredits them to both Israel and the Church since 1948. Show proof texts against before accusing of heresy.

    Family time, folks. I'm rather tired of all the flaming by self-righteous "Christians" who beat their chests and accuse everyone they disagree with of heresy. From now on, I'm deleting any comment that accuses one brethren or another so the tone returns to being civil and we can fulfill Romans 15:5.


    BIBLICAL exegesis why the 'former and latter rains' concern Israel and NOT the Church.

    "Are we seeing the Latter Rain that the book of Joel predicted?
    There are three facets to keep in mind to have a correct interpretation of Acts 2:17 which refers to Joel 2,3.
    1) time
    2) place
    3) recipients
    All three need to be accurate to determine if in fact it this outpouring has taken place.

    1.Time- this occurs in the tribulation period near the end, so it is impossible for this to be happening now.

    2.Place- It begins in Israel specifically Mt. Zion (Jerusalem).

    3. Recipients- It is to the Jewish people primarily for them to be saved. If this is not taking place with all three elements then it has not happened as the Scripture records and it is not fulfilled prophecy.

    Latter Rain adherents have a movement that believes in a last day’s revival unlike any other in history. This revival is for the church. They incorrectly apply eschatological passages specifically for Israel to the church.

    The common mistake is taking the scripture in Acts 2:17 which says: 'God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh,' to substantiate what is happening in the new revivals today. This is not the meaning of this verse and cannot be applied today for the above mentioned reasons……….

  • Imminency Lamb and Lion teaches an imminent Rapture so 'latter rain' for the Church destroys imminency! Thats a contradiction as it would be something that HAD to happen before the Rapture. Theres no way that is true teaching.


  • Beth, not even Israel becoming a nation again – a prerequisite for most end time prophecies – affects the imminency of the Rapture. The Rapture is imminent regardless of anything, including whether God chooses to exercise the use of His Spirit or not.

    While there are many who abuse the spiritual gifts, they are still happening legitimately in this day. We cannot deny the work of the Holy Spirit is acting in this day and age (and we should be terrified to – Mat. 12:32). I don't have a charasmatic bone in my body, but I cannot deny what is being accomplished and that the latter rain has begun to fall, with total fulfillment during the Tribulation.

  • The above anon has pointed out scripture to argue the point on the latter rain, which i happen to agree with.
    Nathan, what is ur response to this point? I agree that we need to not be screaming heresy every time we have a disagreement, however, i feel it is important for u to respond to this issue with patience and love … u just may be able to learn something and we all need to be willing to do that. That includes u and l&l….

  • Susie, Anonymous pointed out the exact same scriptures Dr. Reagan used. Anybody's welcome to disagree with our interpretation, but would be hard pressed to dispute the actual work of the Holy Spirit that's alive and well today.

  • I'm not charismatic either but of all I have read and studied claiming most of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are temporal I do not agree with what they present as proof Scriptures. When the perfect comes context refers to the Body, not the Canon, so although there is much I don't understand, the Bible tells me that the Holy Spirit, as God, does not change or take away what He first gives and He still gives out his gifts when He wants to – but He never contradicts what is written. This is my decision from a great deal of prayerful study for and against. The former and latter rain for the church is plain wrong, its winkled out of Scripture to fit man's idea. It makes no sense to claim imminency at the same time insist the church has to have this outpouring before the Rapture. Scriptures tell me the opposite, there will be a decline right to end of the church age. Deception is the order of the day and not any kind of GODLY spiritual outpouring. Jesus made it plain, so very plain about this on Olivet, watch out that no one deceives you and that was top of His list. Men can prophecy of a revival, but Scripture does not back it, not at all. Oh that it was true, but wishing it doesnt make it true.

    I also agree with the Let Us Reason Scripture analysis. Plus the double fulfillment idea is out of step with correct interpretation, but I dont know well enough to argue the point.


  • While the Church is suffering a Laodicean decline in the West, it's thriving and prospering under persecution in Africa and Asia. Some numbers are coming in that 25,000 people are coming to the Lord per day in these regions! There is a revival going on, just not here in the West.

  • Just for the record nathan i want u to know that i KNOW and agree that the work of the HS is alive and well today:) … because of the outpuring from the day of pentecost. The latter rain will occur when the church is removed. I think.

  • I believe the commentors are trying to make a mountain out of an interpertation that has no impact on salvation or the soon coming of our Lord, As I read your comments I would remind you that if there is a disagreement with a brother we are to approach that brother individually, and if not satisifed than with two or more witnesses. this is a public forum so I would think it best to look at your comments biblically before posting them. Our nation has literally abandoned God since the 60's and more so recently with the embracement of homosexuality by not only our president but main stream Protestant denominations. The emergent church as decimated the gospel. Let us prayerfully consider our responses to edify not to become self righteous and puffed up.

  • As you rightly say THIS is a PUBLIC forum that is broadcasting an out of context error publically, therfore a public rebuke is entirely Biblical. What is declared publically must be challenged publically for the sake of those being led astray by a deception. 1Tim5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. Lamb and Lion are giving an answer publically albeit formed from a subjective, experiential worldview.

    Matt18:15-17 THIS concerns a private issue. Going to a brother privately involves a personal dispute.

  • Nathan, what of the Tabernacle of David comment thrown in the mix? The Holy Spirit indeed continues to be active, we as the Body of Christ are equipped by the Holy Spirit in the distribution of the Gifts of the Spirit. Each of these gifts provided either strengthen or exhort the Body collectively or as individuals, they are also used to accomplish the task of evangelism (Tongues and the Interpretation of Tongues)!

    The Holy Spirit was poured out upon the inhabitants gathered during the Day of Pentecost to spread the Gospel throughout the known world, thus those gathered heard the Gospel in their native tongue and returned sharing the Good News! A similar event recorded in the Old Testament also took place in the construction of the Tabernacle as well as the Temple when the Spirit of God empowered men to work as fine craftsmen!

    The Latter Rain which will be poured out upon Israel I believe will take place during the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5,6 with the sending of the Prophet Elijah to prepare the hearts of Israel for the Messianic Age! With the absence of the Church the foundation will be prepared for Israel to take the reigns! Romans 11:23-26 documents this time in which the natural branches that were cutoff because of disbelief or in the rejection of Christ will again be restored as they receive the promise of salvation!

    "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead"-Romans 11:15. Let us then rejoice, "It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found"-Luke 15:32. Shalom my friends and may we continue in the diligent study of the scriptures and with strength and boldness proclaim the accepted time of our Lord, for Today is the Day of Salvation!

  • “The Latter Rain Revival Movement?”




    Matthew 12:14-37; 13:1-52; 15:12; 23:1-36; 24:10-28
    Mark 6:21-30
    Luke 8:13-18
    John 6:60-71; 8:31-59; 13:21-30; 15:18-27

    Acts 8:8-24; 13:4-12; 20:17-35
    Paul' s Epistles
    Romans 1:18-32; 10; 16:17-18
    2 Corinthians 11:1-15; 13:5
    Galatians 1:6-9; 5:1-12
    Philippians 3:2, 18-19
    Colossians 2:4-23
    2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
    1 Timothy 1:3-7; 4:1-3; 6:3-5
    2 Timothy 2:11-26; 3:1-14; 4:1-6
    Titus 1:10-16

    General Epistles
    Hebrews 2:1-4; 3:7- 4:13; 5:12- 6:12; 10:26-31; 12:14-17
    1 Peter 3:19-20
    2 Peter 2:1-22; 3:3-10
    1 John 2:18-23; 3:4-12; 4:1-6
    2 John 9
    Jude 3-23
    Revelation 2:1- 3:22; 4:1- 5:14; 6:1- 10:11; 11:1- 15:8; 16:1- 19:24; 19:1- 20:15[32]

    * Incomplete listings

    I take no pleasure in the apostasy theme of the New Testament, but we all must acknowledge this point in an effort to call the Church away from apostasy. The sobering fact is clear: either the restoration/" latter rain" movement is a heaven sent revival from God or it is part of the end-time apostasy preparing the way for the coming Antichrist. It cannot be both. We all must decide! No one can be neutral on this issue! If it is the great revival supposedly predicted for the end-times, then all true believers must join the band wagon. If it is not, then all true believers should have enough biblical sense to come in out of the latter rain apostasy. These are important issues…..

    …..This is one of the main reasons why so many Charismatic leaders appear to increasingly pepper their sermons with anti-rapture statements. They [at least] realize that one cannot be looking both for a great " latter rain" revival and an any-moment return of Christ at the rapture. If a revival is necessary, then there is something that has to happen before Christ could return, and the rapture would have to wait until after this has convened……..

    ………I have meet people who say that they believe in both an any-moment rapture and the necessity of an end-time revival. This is logically impossible as noted above. If any thing has to happen before the rapture, then it is logically impossible that the rapture is imminent.

    Yet, even after asking those who hold this position for an explanation that would resolve this clear conflict, they cannot verbalize one. They are usually quick to tell me that God can to things that appear impossible to us and continue believing two contradictory views.

    The impossible things that God does in history do not relate to resolving contradictions, but refers to Him accomplishing things that a finite, fallen human being lacks the ability to perform. God never has or will accomplish things that contradict His Word.
    Instead, He performs His will in His own time in His way.

    So this is not an instance of a both/and, but of an either/or.

    Either the pretrib rapture is true or it is not.
    Or, either an end-time " latter rain" revival is true or it is not.
    Fish or cut bait, but you cannot do both…..

    ………The New Testament does warn in dozens of passages about the threat of apostate doctrine and behavior that Believers are to beware of. Finally, the New Testament does teach Believers " to WAIT FOR HIS SON FROM HEAVEN, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).

    Jesus Himself is our hope. The hope, like a betrothed bride, who longs to see and be with her groom because she loves him (and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, 1 Pet. 1:8). Maranatha!"

    Dr.Thomas Ice.

    [Jesus Himself is our hope! NOTHING is said about a 'latter rain' revival being our hope in any way, shape or form. While Apostasy IS to be expected of fake lying signs and wonders performed by another spirit, in the name of another Jesus and another gospel!]

  • Rodney! Just a lil side bar… did u see on hal lindsay that he feels persia is the hook in the jaw? Interesting, huh? What do u think?

  • Susie, I believe will be the gathering point of both Persia and Russia as they are being draw into conflict to prevent Western military intervention under the guise of humanitarian concerns! This of course has always been my belief derived from the scriptures, for events were yet required to draw them to the borders of Israel to where once positioned Gog will think his evil thought to invade Israel!

    Russia, Iran, and China know full well, if they do not take a stand against Western hegemony in Syria as they failed to do in Libya, their strategic and economic alliances as well as their resources will be at risk from further Western adventures.

    Various intel suggests that the Arab Spring was a Western orchestration utilizing intelligence agents to foment popular uprisings in North Africa and the MiddleEast. The plan was to use domestic universities to carry the message of Western style democracy, once the people believed it was possible and that the West would aid (military) in their bid for freedom they began to fill the streets! When the smoke cleared and with their leaders beaten, tortured, and killed and their cities in ruin they were effectively abandoned by the West and provided with Shariah Law under the direction of the Muslim Brotherhood! This is an effective campaign that requires no boots on the ground and allows the people in these nations to slaughter each other for the promise of democracy that was a lie from the beginning!

    Russia is fully aware that the FSA or Free Syrian Army has funneled weapons from Libya through N.A.T.O. and the presence of Al Qaeda in Syria is also no accident! As the United States funded mujahideen (Islamic Guerillas)operations against the Soviet's in Afghanistan in the 80's, it would appear that they are back on the payroll to serve the interests of the West!

    I like Hal Lindsey yet his belief that Gog/Magog does not occur until the mid-point of the Tribulation clashes with known scripture! It is also my personal view that what we are seeing take place at this very moment in Syria and the entire region will quickly escalate into the Gog/Magog battle as Russia and Iran will commit to full deployment along with many of the S.C.O. (Shaghai Cooperation Organization)!

  • Thank u for takin the time to share all that wonderful information! I live to learn it! I didnt realize hal lindsay held that view re: gog/magog timing. I agree with u that it wont be in the middle. I guess (duh) i forgot persia is russia… i kinda thought the Lord would use the natural resource discoveries of late in israel as the hook!! Thanks rodney:)

  • Susie, Persia is Iran!! Iran is linked to Russia in economic as well as strategic agreements! Russia, China, and Iran are preparing for war against the West! Syria will be in a sense the last stand of many nations as they are gathered on the mountains (borders) of Israel being drawn by unseen hand!

    The events being played out in the Middle East and North Africa today have caused me to focus on something mysterious! Why do you suppose that everywhere the West has set their proverbial eye upon, the presence of Al Qaeda is found? Is it coincidence that they are operating in our favor?

    Surely if the United States has blossomed in their love affair with the Muslim Brotherhood they would also share the same warmth with their fellow Sunni militant arm widely known as Al Qaeda! These strategic alliances share new light on the events of 9/11 in my opinion!

  • Rodney… after laughing out loud for five minutes at myself… 🙂 ….. ok.. thank u again…. and, i know this is a very unpopular opinion, but i happen to agree with u re your opinion on al queda and u.s. friendlies …. before my husband passed away, (when obama was running for pres)…. he and i discussed ojr suspicions about HIM even being a friend to al queda. Now.. everyone that is just my opinion so dont scream at me too much for naming him like that…..

  • Susie, I will take the full brunt of the coming guantlet that I am sure is going to fall because of my opion regarding this matter, yet if anyone takes a serious look at these dynamics they would surely come to the same conclusion.
    These Islamic guerrilla forces were used against the Soviet's in the 80's funded by the West and provided intelligence by the C.I.A., today it would appear little has changed!

  • Rodney, it grieves my heart …. but i agree.. and very much appreciate u "havin my back"..
    Ur brother in arms… my beloved arthur would surely hug ur neck for it 🙂 and in heaven, im absolutely certain he will.

  • Rodney.. since i already diverted this discussion(sorry everyone)….. i have another off subject question i wanna ask u… i respect ur opinion so bear with me because my heart is concerned about this issue … do u not feel that scripture teaches us that (as stated in eph) … salvation is an eternally secure doctrine? Or do u think salvation can be forfieted at the descretion of the true believer??? Im sorry im putting u on the spot.. but i would appreciate ur feeling on this all u regulars know.. i am alone in this world save my precious LORD.. .which witnesses to me a sealed salvation by grace which before time forgave all sin past present and future. Thank u 🙂 susie

    • I guess i should have said .. since the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus.. forgave all sin past present and future… i had in my mind that the plan of salvation was in place before time as we know it.

  • Susie, if salvation is a free gift, not earned, how then can we lose it? We know that as believers, we have been bought with a great price and that nothing can seperate us from God!

    I recently had a conversation on this exact subject with a Pastor who invited me to his Church while I was shopping with my wife in a local grocery store, after a lengthy conversation he asked me if I was one of those "Once saved, always saved" people! My reply, was a resounding yes to his obvious dismay!

    I began to explain to this Pastor of World Harvest that if salvation were dependent on our own works then surely we would have no hope, yet thankfully Christianity is not a religion or a system of works, it is a faith based relationship with the Lord!

    Christianity is a walk with Christ as we grow from babes into maturity, it is a journey we all must walk. During this particular journey we will find ourselves at times giving into selfish lusts or fleshly desires which will hinder our relationship, though the Lord will not leave us or forsake us, he calls upon us to confess our sins daily and he is just to forgive us our sins.

    If I were to believe the words of this Pastor, then surely I would have to renew my confession of faith in Christ multiple times throughout the day having feared my loss of salvation, yet we know fully well Susie, the Lord is the Author and Finisher of our faith, it is he alone we can trust for our eternal security! Rest easy my sister!

  • Let me also be clear, we do not have a liscense to sin, God forbid, as we grow into maturity we will have new desires and our hearts and minds renewed, becoming a new creature no longer giving heed to the desires of the flesh, yet being born again, a new creature! This is by the work of the Holy Spirit of course not by our own merit, all we need is but to supply a small portion of faith as the initial seed, yet in the end it will grow exceedingly great!

  • RODNEY!!! Im thrilled that as someone whom i have grown to believe loves our Lord as i do.. holds true to this ALL IMPORTANT doctrine. L&l does not hold true to this doctrine as well as being mistaken regarding the latter rain issue. Now… nathan… i dont mind if u r upset witb me or not! This ministry is influencing MANY believers.. some new and impressionable in our faith and u r standing on more than one incorrect teaching. Im sorry! But its crucial for people to be fed the truth from our leaders and after our arguement as of late regarding salvation security… whch u clearly stated rests on the believer… and then this issue of the latter rain… im grieved deeply in my spirit … truely…. please please reconsider these teachings!
    Rodney, as usual….. thanks again… love to u brother in Yeshua's precious name… and nathan i love u and dr reagan i Yeshuas name also… but these mentioned topics are not up for debate or diffences of interrpretation like the timing of the rapture is! These r serious doctrinal errors on ur ministy's part and my heart is heavy because of it…….

  • Susie, as I have stated earlier, we are all on a journey together, for some maturity is a longer journey than others. Without a desire for the truth of the Word of God and refusing to read it for ourselves we will remain babes! As we do grow in maturity and desire the meat of the Word we no longer need instruction by any man, for we are sensitive and alert to the instruction of the Holy Spirit in our personal devotion to the Word of God and the exercising of our faith! That my friend is the unbridled truth!

    Though some may disagree with this statement, the scriptures identify this to be true! It is also true that we must not refuse to be held accountable for the sake of keeping our doctrine sound! As we mature in Christ we will be given more responsibility yet we will also be held accountable in our use of it! There is none above reproach, when it concerns doctrine and the sanctity of our faith!

  • Rodney, i very much agree with u on all points… i hope that we ALL can continue to learn and grow together as i have loved this forum for almost a year now……….. 🙂 🙂 🙂 i have met several people here that i am looking forward to rejoicing with in the very near future!!!!!

  • Susie, Sorry I'm late to the party as usual…
    As Rush frequently likes to say to liberals who waffle & spin everything, "Words have meanings!"

    Same with God!
    There would be no way for us to have any clear understanding of any of His Words if He was ambiguous in His meanings!

    He says what He means and means what He says!


    1 John 5:11-13
    11 And this is the record, that God HAS GIVEN to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    12 He that has the Son HAS life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life.
    13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may KNOW that you HAVE ETERNAL life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Notice that it is PAST TENSE! It's not "will have, maybe, might get it, -if you make it to the end". You have it now and He wants you to know it now and be secure in it!
    If you have the Son living in you, you have His kind of life that is in Him, living in you –and His kind of life is eternal.

    Notice also, that it is always called "eternal", that is, if it could end, be lost, given up, or taken away, then it wouldn't, couldn't be "eternal"!

    Now look at how Jesus answers the "other side" in Matthew 7:23.
    "And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
    Since Jesus cannot lie, there cannot be any "once saved and then turned away and lost it somehow"!!

    Remember, it is the adversary that always takes you back to Genesis 3; "Did God really say that… and you're buying into it?!?"
    And 2ndly, Major Major Rule:
    Always, Always gather up all the clear, easy to understand doctrinal verses and get solidly grounded on it **before** you tackle the more difficult, apparently "contradictory" vs!
    [Hebrews -Note the careful juxaposition of the lost & saved, "we, they, us, them"!]

    John 5:24 is one of my personal favorites for the cults after leading them to all the other vs that tell me I have eternal life right now and they don't have ANY-THING to offer me as incentive to hook up with them and work for a salvation that I already possess. Somewhere in the process they will tell me "That's just your interpretation…"
    So I say "Well here, you read this and you tell me what it says, and pay particular attention to the tenses of the the verbs."

    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Usually, after a little squirming around on that one, I get something along the lines of "Well I don't believe it that way!"
    And I say "Hey, I didn't write that, God did! We're just reading His Word, so your argument's not with me, it's with God!

    Is there anything that could happen to me in the future that could cause me to "change", to lose "my" faith, and turn away from "the Faith", salvation, God, Jesus??

  • Look again at the words of assurance in Romans 8 [and remember, this is more than Paul's opinion. He is speaking under the inspiration and guided by the HS]:

    38 For I am persuaded [Gee, I wonder by whom..Duh! (makes me want to wave a hand..maybe kick a leg out too!)], that neither death, nor life, nor angels [including Satan & his fallen gang], nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present [nothing happening in your life right now!], nor THINGS TO COME[Meaning: There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in our future that can change our position in Christ!!!],
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature [Lit: creation], shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    But wait! Don't stop here! The security of Romans 8 does not really end here!

    [I thot I had mentioned it here before but I am not finding it right now, but Please Note that there are NO chapter divisions in the original language manuscripts! A number of yrs ago, while I wuz pondering "Eternal Security" and the Majestic Graciousness of R11:29, it suddenly dawned on me that I was really still in R8 and that there was no change of subject! (I have no idea where that came from…). In all the commentaries on Romans that I have seen to date, they all treat Rom 9-11 as an insertion of some kind, a change of subject dealing with either/both, the sovereignty of God and/or the "problem of Israel"… NOT SO! Rom 9-11 are the "Eternal Security Example" portion of Chapter 8 for all those who "think" that they are hopelessly lost!
    Our Eternal Security is directly linked and stands upon God's Eternal Covenant with Israel! ]

    Romans 11:25:
    25 For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. -KJV

    In case the Old English isn't clear enough:
    29 Because the gifts and calling of God are **IRREVOCABLE**. -NASB

    "…but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord." [R6:23]
    Ooops, there's that "eternal" word again!

    Yer welcome, glad I could be of service!

  • Look again at the words of assurance in Romans 8 [and remember, this is more than Paul's opinion. He is speaking under the inspiration and guided by the HS]:

    38 For I am persuaded [Gee, I wonder by whom..Duh! (makes me want to wave a hand..maybe kick a leg out too!)], that neither death, nor life, nor angels [including Satan & his fallen gang], nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present [nothing happening in your life right now!], nor THINGS TO COME[Meaning: There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in our future that can change our position in Christ!!!],
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature [Lit: creation], shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    But wait! Don't stop here! The security of Romans 8 does not really end here!

    [I thot I had mentioned it here before but I am not finding it right now, but Please Note that there are NO chapter divisions in the original language manuscripts! A number of yrs ago, while I wuz pondering "Eternal Security" and the Majestic Graciousness of R11:29, it suddenly dawned on me that I was really still in R8 and that there was no change of subject! (I have no idea where that came from…). In all the commentaries on Romans that I have seen to date, they all treat Rom 9-11 as an insertion of some kind, a change of subject dealing with either/both, the sovereignty of God and/or the "problem of Israel"… NOT SO! Rom 9-11 are the "Eternal Security Example" portion of Chapter 8 for all those who "think" that they are hopelessly lost!
    Our Eternal Security is directly linked and stands upon God's Eternal Covenant with Israel! ]

    Romans 11:25:
    25 For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. -KJV

    In case the Old English isn't clear enough:
    29 Because the gifts and calling of God are **IRREVOCABLE**. -NASB

    "…but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord." [R6:23]
    Ooops, there's that "eternal" word again!

    Yer welcome, glad I could be of service!

    • Dr no fog!! Thank u sooooo much for ur imput!! U have provided a plethera of scripture and insight on the incdedibly important doctine of eternal security in salvation…. i personally did not doubt this… however all the scripture references r awesome and hopefully will enlighten l&l to this truth… .. 😉 my concern is for new believers participating here who have read in past (recent) blogs that they teach here that one can lose tbeir salvation based one their on sin .. post salvation…
      so.. tell me.. dr no fog… what is ur belief concerning dr reagans article stating that we r in the latter rain presently?? I disagree with this also, as i feel the latter rain will occur after we (the church) r raptured?? I wouldnt make a big deal out of this except i feel SO STRONGLY that in both cases.. this is serious doctrine that people could be led astray by. Thanks so much.. in Yeshua.. with love :):):)

    • O.. and one more thing.. after reading ur post, i cant help but PRAISE OUR LORD with so much joy!!! 🙂 thanks be to God for His promises!! I love him so much!!!

  • Micah Rapier
    Jesus said Let him that is without sin cast the first stone

    Vengence is mine saith the Lord, I will repay.

    Thats a big root of bitterness you have there, adding treachery to it will do you the most harm. Don't pass it on to that beautiful boy! Remember ALL have sinned and fallen short …Thats why Jesus came and gave His life for us, that we might be saved from the wages of sin by putting our faith in Jesus to give us eternal life.
    Because He has forgiven us so much, then we need to forgive others.

  • Micah
    All 'prophets' are sinners, false or genuine, they are sinners saved by God's Grace through faith in Jesus, the same as the rest of us.

    Matt.7:15-23 Jesus tells us that the 'fruit' of a prophet is known by the words he speaks that are contrary to Doctrine, not by their sins or their good works. We are to judge whether or not the truth of Scripture is spoken.

    BUT we are told NOT to be judges over the behaviour of another; that is God’s prerogative, not ours. Matt.7:1-5. We all have beams in our own eyes.

    Matt.5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    45.That ye may be the CHILDREN OF YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    However we aren’t expected to be doormats, it is better to separate from a bad situation, let the law do its job, pray, and don’t allow a root of bitterness to spring up and choke out our fellowship with our heavenly Father. God’s will be done, not ours.

    My heart goes out to you Micah, our prayers for you and all your family.
    God be with you and give you His peace and mercy.

  • Today Israel is without a king and Christ is not ruling on the throne of David. In the future Israel will return and seek the Lord. At that time they will not be without a King. Their King will be on David's throne in Jerusalem.

    Amos 9:11-15).

    The raising up of the fallen booth of David is associated with the RESTORATION OF ISRAEL(v.14) when God will "plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land" (v.15). This implies that prior to the millennium the tabernacle of David was in a fallen condition. Christ, therefore, did not restore the throne and tabernacle of David when He sat down at the right hand of the Father. THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID HAS NOT YET BEEN RESTORED, BUT IT WILL BE IN THE FUTURE WHEN CHRIST ASSUMES HIS MILLENNIAL THRONE.

    To teach allegorically that this involves the Church is part of the ‘Manifest Sons of God’ of the so called ‘Latter Rain Movement’. It is part of Replacement Theology which comes as a result of failing to interpret prophecy literally.
    Israel is separate from the Church and God's purposes for both are different.

  • It is one thing to declare a viewpoint yet at the same time allegorise Joel’s prophecy purposed for literal Israel, and also spiritualise the restoration of the Tabernacle of David for the church; both of which concern the restoration of Israel at the start of the millennium in the future.
    A Biblically sound, literal hermeneutic does not recognise a ‘double fulfilment’ of a prophecy, each prophecy has only ONE meaning, not dual. The so called ‘latter rain’ view has been ripped out of its context and forced like a square peg into a round hole, to also apply to the Church since 1948 as is the theory on the Tabernacle of David.

    This makes the Holy Spirit to be as capricious as a mystical sprite. This insults His integrity as He always stays within the written bounds of God’s Word so we ALL know where we stand and what is of Him, and what isn’t of Him.

    There is no value in claiming this ‘knowledge’ has come through personal revelation of the Holy Spirit, as He is adamant that the Church must TEST the spirit to see if it is of God, or not. The method of ‘testing’ is like the men of Berea did, they carefully examined Scripture to check what Paul had told them was true. As there is no new revelation since the time of the Apostles, it appears that whatever spirit is claiming this ‘interpretation’, is not the Spirit of Christ.

    Provide the SCRIPTURAL evidence, in context, to support this ‘interpretation’ and so remove the subjective mysticism it is without Biblical support.

  • Anonymous, God most certainly uses dual fulfillments and fulfillments in types of prophecies. Just look at the two exiles of Israel, or the prophecies concerning Antiochus and Antichrist.

    Look, you're welcome to believe we're not in a "latter rain," ignoring what's going on in the Church all around the world. Your prerogative. But, if the work of the Holy Spirit is truly happening and you're denying it, then who are you setting yourself up against? Best then not to be so dogmatic about this issue.

  • Nathan
    Excuse me for being 'dogmatic' but the Scriptures you refer to are not ‘double fulfilment’ at all. They are two separate events split by a period of time backed by other Scriptures known as Double REFERENCE. The ‘latter rain’ and David’s Tabernacle are not in this category, there is only ONE fulfilment of them both and timed for ISRAEL – AFTER the Tribulation when the Church is in heaven with Jesus.

    I know that this 'work' that you refer to is of another spirit because it runs contrary to Scripture that categorically states there is to be apostasy with lying signs and wonders. As it gets worse, the imminent Rapture will remove the Church from this progressive deception as well as the judgments. This fact has been true since the times of the Apostles, centuries before 1948and remains true.

    I am judging this by God's Word; as there are copious amounts of Scripture that stands against the ‘latter rain’ deception, and not by 'liver quiver' feelings and awesome ‘wonders’. Unless you have deleted them, there is a selection of verses about the prophesied deception listed in this thread compiled by Dr. Thomas Ice.

    Jesus’ FIRST warning on Olivet was ‘see that no man deceive you’. That is achieved by comparing Scriptures only.

    As an aside, it would benefit L&L to learn about the miracles and healings that occur via the ‘Christian Scientist’, not trickery but real healings such as a severed finger being ‘miraculously’ restored; the apostate church is doing the same – such as were the antics of Jannes and Jambres and Simon Magi, whom Philip had to deal with. God’s clearly defined Word is our ‘spirit level’, if it isn’t stated clearly in Scripture then no matter how awesome it might appear, it is NOT of the Holy Spirit!!!

  • In case of doubt to my above stance against the ‘latter rain’, I am fully persuaded that ALL the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are STILL operational and will not cease until the 'perfect' is come. i.e. when the Church is changed from mortal to immortal and she beholds Jesus face to face. When we see Him, at the end of the Church age, we shall be like Him, and have no need of their spiritual help.

  • Nathan.. i am sincerely praying for u and l&l that the HS will remove the blinders from your eyes on this issue and the doctine of eternal salvation. It scares me that you are so sincere and the deception is so clear in scripture. No one is denying the power of the HS in the world today. But the latter rain will come after the HS has been removed. He has never left since pentecost.

  • Just want you to know Dr. Reagan and Nathan, that you are a blessing and a delight and I enjoy your program. It is even so beautiful of you to let others share their comments on this site. After reading them all, it shows me God's love for us. There is so much wisdom, knowledge and understanding and
    so much that we all can learn and grow by. Thank you! Nathan, keep up the good work.

    Love to you all!


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