The Christ in Prophecy Journal

Angel of the Lord: OT Appearances


Several years ago I received a letter from a fellow in Champaign, Illinois in which he asked me a number of very thought provoking questions about Jesus before He became incarnate in the flesh. Since that time, a number of other people have contacted me with a variety of questions concerning the same subject. I’ve collected my answers and will post them in four parts in this “Angel of the Lord” series.

Question: Did Jesus make appearances before His incarnation?

Answer: Definitely. A good example is found in Isaiah 6. King Uzziah, who had reigned for 52 years in Judah, had just died, and Isaiah, who was probably only a teenager at the time, went to the Temple to mourn the king’s death.

Isaiah was surprised by a vision in which he saw the Lord — the King of kings — “sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted” (Isaiah 6:1). In John 12:41 we are told that what Isaiah saw was Jesus in “His glory” — the glory He had before He became incarnate (Philippians 2:5-8).

Question: I have heard that “the Angel of the Lord” who is often referred to in the Old Testament was really Jesus making preincarnate appearances. Is this true?

Answer: “The Angel of the Lord” is referred to 56 times in 51 verses in the Hebrew Scriptures. The first reference is found in Genesis 16:7-12 where it says that “the Angel of the Lord” appeared to Hagar as she was fleeing in the wilderness from the rage of Abraham’s wife. The Angel told her to go back home, and then He revealed to her that she was pregnant with a son whose name would be called Ishmael.

A study of the subsequent appearances of the Angel of the Lord makes it very clear that they were pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus.

A good example is found in Exodus 3. There we are told that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in the burning bush (verse 2). Then we are later told that the Angel spoke to Moses and said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” (verse 6).

In Exodus 23 we are told that God the Father spoke to Moses and said He would send an angel to guide and protect the Children of Israel in the Wilderness. He refers to this angel as “My angel” and states that “My name is in Him” (Exodus 23:20-23). This is obviously no ordinary angel.

In Judges 13 we are told that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Manoah and his wife to inform them that they would have a child named Samson. When Manoah asked the Angel for His name, He replied, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?” (Judges 13:18). Manoah got the point of this statement immediately, for he turned to his wife and said, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God” (Judges 13:22).

The Angel’s deity is also attested to by the fact that on two occasions He accepted worship. When He appeared to both Moses (Exodus 3:1-5) and Joshua (Joshua 5:14-15), they were told to remove their sandals for they were “standing on holy ground.”

Couldn’t the Angel of the Lord have been God the Father rather than God the Son? Find out in the next part of this “Angel of the Lord” series!

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ABOUT AUTHOR View all posts Author Website

Dr. David Reagan

Dr. David Reagan is the Founder and Evangelist Emeritus of Lamb & Lion Ministries. He is a life-long Bible student, teacher, and preacher and he led over 45 pilgrimages to Israel. Dr. Reagan was the host of the radio then television program Christ in Prophecy for nearly 40 years.

50 CommentsLeave a Comment

  • Dr. D asks "Couldn't the Angel of the Lord have been God the Father rather than God the Son?"

    As one facet of an answer, I find it interesting that "The Angel of the Lord" is referred to 56 times in 51 verses.

    Those familiar with Bible Numerics or Gematria would recognize 56 as 7 [the number most prominently designated as God's number] times 8 [associated with resurrection and new beginnings]. The name Jesus in Greek adds up to 888, again with 8 being resurrection and 3 of them representing the Trinity.
    And in 51 verses – 3 x the prime number 17, again, numbers that appear significantly in Scripture…

  • But of course, Rodney. This site has always promoted divination by astrology, numerology, tarot cards, palm & entrails reading, etc. [my personal favorite is "shrooms"…]

    It's called "Numerics" and Gemetria to make a clear distinction from numerology.

    Grant Jefferies book "The Signature of God" has a chapter devoted to the works of Dr. Ivan Panin and Bible Numerics as the "watermark" of God in every page of the Scriptures.

    Ivan Panin's – Bible Numerics
    Ivan Panin proves the authenticity of the Bible by the mathematical seal beneath its surface

    Bible Numerics
    Numeric English New Testament – translated by Ivan Panin – 630 pages. … Bible Numerics – by Ivan Panin – 30 pages. This paper is the text of a speech …

    Evidence of Design: Beloved Numerologist – Chuck Missler …
    Ivan Panin was born in Russia on December 12, 1855. Having participated in plots against the Czar at an early age, he was exiled and, after spending some …

    Science Proves the Bible
    (This page consists of A book on Numerics, several articles on Ivan Panin and his Numeric discoveries, and lastly an article on Bibles and accuracy by the editor.

    Dr Ivan Panin – Bible Numerics research
    Dr Ivan Panin was born in Russia on Dec 12, 1855. As a young man he was an active nihilist and participated in plots against the Czar and his government. …

    And as I mentioned last year – "…the entire Bible contains "water-marks" of the hand of God. Do a search on the works of Ivan Panin for a real eye-popper that will leave you astounded at the creative genius & works of God!…" here

    "…Had Martin Luther had his way and removed the "straw epistle" of James from the Canon this entire number scheme along with thousands of others that run throughout both the OT & NT would have been destroyed…"here

    and here

  • Kabbalah uses the same method in addition to applying several other forbidden forms of divination. The Word of God stands alone without requiring specific numerical sequencing as proof of the existence of God. Grant Jeffrey is also a believer in the supposed Bible Code.

    While all these things are interesting, they are also dangerous when we seek to create extrabiblical interpretations. The Word of God is clear, that it is of no hidden interpretation. To apply numerical values to the plain biblical context suggests that it is not efficient enough for the reader.

  • If we believe in a supposed Bible Code to authenticate the truth of the existence of God, we might as well suggest crop circles are also this signature. The proof of authenticity is found not only in the fulfillment of specific prophecies yet also in the accounts of the eye witnesses of these events. The record of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John exists as a great example of this.

    Regardless of the attempt by those of supposed biblical scholarship to reconcile themselves with the scientific community through supposed hidden codes within the biblical text, it will only serve to reveal that these men require the approval of the scientific community concerning their faith. That my friends is truly sad.

  • DrNofog

    I too have Grants book, and a few others – really interesting. When letters are missing from a parchment, it is easy for them to discover what letter SHOULD be there by following the number sequence.

    It does need to be said that the stuff put out by Drosnin was newspaper hype. It is NOT possible to tell the future from Bible Numeric’s nor is that the purpose of it. It reveals God as an amazing mathematician, one of precision and order and adds nothing to the plain written Scripture. Doctrine is not affected in any way and it has nothing to do with Kabbalah.

  • The Bible Code proponents use the same method as Kabbalah even though these divination methods are strictly prohibited by the Lord God. If we seek to identify this as purely scholarly or a quest for knowledge, it does not change the fact that it exists as rebellion against God. Not only do these people seek to authenticate God as the author of the Bible through these fictional codes, they also seek to predict future events through divination applying numerology. It does not take a rocket scientist to see where this originates from. It smells like sulphur to me. The Gnostics are alive and well among us.

  • Happily Gematria made believers out of some of the sceptical scientists when they realised the repeated mathematical improbability that came from the tests.

    Kabbalist’s try the same divination tricks with the plain reading of Scripture never mind the ‘codes’. As plain as the Scripture is, they find it mysterious and unable to see the plain truth.

    Insisting Gematria is fictional without attempting to disprove what has been proven repetitively, won’t change a thing, they remain a fact, and Mathematics is a well known science, hardly ‘gnostic’.

    People felt exactly the same fear at man’s explorations of the earth, oceans and space (Here there be dragon’s). The resulting knowledge presented by the explorer’s has had the same effect as Gematria; it has added praise and wonderment of our fantastic, creator God.

    The smell of sulphur will come when striking matches to light inflammatory fires.
    However, as it frightens you Rodney, then you are right to steer clear, as this science is not an essential for building The Faith.

  • E.I., there is no evidence that this has convinced anyone, in fact it is a reason for mocking among the scientific community. In regards to archeology however, archeology does not prove the Bible, the truth of the Bible is evidenced by archeology.

    There are many today among Christian circles that seek to adopt supposed sources of ancient wisdom, yet these sources come from divination, and darkness can not dwell among light. Can that of demonic origins then be readily accepted as means of dispensing the truth?

    The truth is evident, they the insist on playing with matches will certainly get burned. Indeed I have fear, for the beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord. Those that do not fear the Lord and what he has declared among us will ultimately find themselves in the Lake of Fire.

  • We have no need to use mathmatical equations to prove the truth of the Word of God. This is yet another attempt by some to introduce a new revelation. Yet the Word of God alone has withstood several campaigns to destroy it and disprove its validity.

    Christianity is an exercise of faith not of scientific proofs. The scientific community is not looking to prove the existence of God but to disprove it. For those who are carnal minded regardless of the undeniable facts presented to them, they will continue to deny the truth of the scriptures.

  • Well said on both counts, EI.
    Amen and amen!

    I'm pretty sure I chose my words carefully for a reason:

    "…Those familiar with Bible Numerics or Gematria…" and "…It's called "Numerics" and Gematria to make a clear distinction from numerology…"

    "…Bible Code proponents use…fictional codes…"

    Bible Code?!? Yet again, 'we' seem to be stuck in your 'Bible Code' rut of rants or are 'we' going to do an 'honest' examination of Bible Numerics/Gematria? Do you even know whereof you speak, as all I see are well glossed-over blendings of crossed up facts, unfounded accusations, and gross misconceptions of what Bible Numerics / Gematria really are.

    The Sword of the Lord is like a Swiss Army knife. There are many 'tools' therein, many not immediately visible to the unaware & unskilled, that can be brought out "that the man of God maybe thoroughly equipped for every good work", every situation of apologetics. [2 Timothy 3:17]

    God did, in fact, use the "sharpest pencils in the box" when He appointed Moses & Paul to write the 1st 5 books of the Bible and 13 [14 if you believe he wrote Hebrews] books of the NT respectively!

    He raises up many notable scholars, like Dr. Panin, brings them to salvation, and appoints them to volumes of Godly works that bear witness to His awesome majesty in all areas of true "science", yet you easily sit in judgment and indict and impune them as …those of supposed biblical scholarship… and accuse them of …attempt[ing] to reconcile themselves with the scientific community… without a clue of their works and challenges to said community. Shame on you. Rodney! And yes, …That my friends is truly sad…

    But I suppose that Robert Dick Wilson wasted 45 long yrs of his life mastering 45 ancient languages & dialects, anything that could have had any influence on the writing of the book of Daniel, to "prove" that it was authentic in both Canon and date, when we all already know that "…The Word of God stands alone…", nothing else to learn…

    And what about Revelation 13:17-18 for example? "…the number of his name.
    18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."


  • Part 2

    Now, God musta said all these strange things for a reason…but you seem opposed to His admonition to explore His "wisdom" and "understanding" because it doesn't fit your mold of what's supposed to be in the Bible, and "…are also dangerous when "we" seek to create extrabiblical interpretations…"

    Here's a good [no, maybe an "evil"…] example of one level of Gematria, a 'hidden message' straight from the pit, a 'new revelation', an 'extrabiblical interpretations' intended to lead astray, that surely "smells like sulphur":

    "The Gospel in Genesis" by none other than that 'well-exposed', "wolf-in-sheep's-clothing" Chuck Missler:

    ["…" = text highly edited]
    "We frequently use the familiar term, gospel, or good news. Where is the first place it appears in the Bible? The answer may surprise you.

    An Integrated Message

    The great discovery is that the Bible is a message system: it's not simply 66 books penned by 40 authors over thousands of years, the Bible is an integrated whole which bears evidence of supernatural engineering in every detail.

    The Jewish rabbis have a quaint way of expressing this very idea: they say that they will not understand the Scriptures until the Messiah comes. But when He comes, He will not only interpret each of the passages for us, He will interpret the very words; He will even interpret the very letters themselves; in fact, He will even interpret the spaces between the letters!

    An Example

    A remarkable example of this…in Genesis Chapter 5, where we have the genealogy of Adam through Noah…we often tend to skim over quickly…"

    But God always rewards the diligent student. Let's examine this chapter more closely.

    In our Bible, we read the Hebrew names. What do these names mean in English?

    A Study of Original Roots

    The meaning of proper names can be a difficult pursuit…A study of the original roots, however, can yield some fascinating insights.

    The Flood Judgment

    Methuselah comes from muth, a root that means "death";1 and from shalach, which means to bring, or to send forth. The name Methuselah means, "his death shall bring".2

    Methuselah's father was given a prophecy of the coming Great Flood, and was apparently told that as long as his son was alive, the judgment of the flood would be withheld…the year that Methuselah died, the flood came.3

  • Part 3

    It is interesting that Methuselah's life, in effect, was a symbol of God's mercy in forestalling the coming judgment of the flood.

    Therefore, it is fitting that his lifetime is the oldest in the Bible, speaking of the extensiveness of God's mercy.

    The Other Names

    If there is such significance in Methuselah's name, let's examine the others…


    Adam's name means man. As the first man, that seems straight forward enough.


    Adam's son was named Seth, which means appointed. Eve said, "For God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew."4


    Seth's son was called Enosh, which means mortal, frail, or miserable. It is from the root anash, to be incurable, used of a wound, grief, woe, sickness, or wickedness.

    It was in the days of Enosh that men began to defile the name of the Living God.5


    Enosh's son was named Kenan, which can mean sorrow, dirge, or elegy


    Kenan's son was Mahalalel, from Mahalal which means blessed or praise; and El, the name for God. Thus, Mahalalel means the Blessed God


    Mahalalel's son was named Jared, from the verb yaradh, meaning shall come down.7


    Jared's son was named Enoch, which means teaching, or commencement. He was the first of four generations of preachers. In fact, the earliest recorded prophecy was by Enoch, which amazingly enough deals with the Second Coming of Christ (although it is quoted in the Book of Jude in the New Testament): …Jude 14, 15


    Enoch was the father of Methuselah, who we have already mentioned. Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah…


    Methuselah's son was named Lamech, a root still evident today in our own English word, lament or lamentation. Lamech suggests despairing


    Lamech, of course, is the father of Noah, which is derived from nacham, to bring relief or comfort, as Lamech himself explains in Genesis 5:29.

    The Composite List

    Now let's put it all together:

    Hebrew – English
    Adam – Man
    Seth – Appointed
    Enosh – Mortal
    Kenan – Sorrow;
    Mahalalel – The Blessed God
    Jared – Shall come down
    Enoch – Teaching
    Methuselah – His death shall bring
    Lamech – The Despairing
    Noah – Rest, or comfort.

    That's rather remarkable:

    Man (is) appointed mortal sorrow; (but) the Blessed God shall come down teaching (that) His death shall bring (the) despairing rest.

  • Part 4

    Here's the Gospel hidden within a genealogy in Genesis!

    (You will never convince me that a group of Jewish rabbis conspired to hide the Christian Gospel right here in a genealogy within their venerated Torah!)

    Evidence of Design

    The implications of this discovery are more wide spread than is evident at first glance.

    It demonstrates that in the earliest chapters of the Book of Genesis, God had already laid out His plan of redemption for the predicament of mankind. It is a love story, written in blood on a wooden cross which was erected in Judea almost 2,000 years ago.

    The Bible is an integrated message system, the product of supernatural engineering. Every number, every place name, every detail every jot and tittle is there for our learning, our discovery, and our amazement. Truly, our God is an awesome God.

    It is astonishing to discover how many Biblical controversies seem to evaporate if one simply recognized the unity the integrity of these 66 books, penned by 40 authors over thousands of years.

    It is remarkable how many subtle discoveries lie behind the little details of the text. Some of these become immediately obvious with a little study; some are more technical and require special helps…"

    -End Quote-

    Now, I don't know about anybody else, but whenever I study any of the things I am always awe-struck with my hands lifted high and a foot twitching to kick out in a Hallelujah or two!

    But then again, that could just be "the flesh" being stirred up by the Devil…

  • Either way you slice it, seeking to prove the validity of the Bible by occultic means reveals the spiritual condition of the seeker. Carnality is visible without reservation. Perhaps we should now be checking our daily horoscopes while were at it. The mystic mumbo jumbo never set me on fire for God, it was the plain and simple text of the Living Word of God.

  • Rodney

    Being afraid of something because others have misused it; is the way societies have been kept in ignorance.

    Rodney it is true Gematria is scoffed and ridiculed by SOME; but you are ill informed to suggest ALL who are ‘worth their salt’ reject it.

    Gematria has absolutely nothing to do with proving God’s Word or producing a new revelation of ‘doctrine’. As sure as the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, there is definitely a mathematical formula ensconced within the Scripture that is humanly impossible to replicate on such a huge scale.

    These have been known for several centuries, it is only the birth of the computer that has opened it up in these last days.

    I know DrNofog will try to at least allay your fears with sensible evidence; I recommend that you actually READ it, as it is apparent to me that this is something you are not doing.

    By stubbornly blinkering yourself will keep you ignorant of the FACTS making your opinion empty words to those who do know the facts.

    From your comments (especially the last one) it is abundantly clear that you are only versed upon what the critics say; that and your understandable fear of offending The Lord. If one is unable to do ‘anything’ with faith, then that ‘thing’ is a ‘sin’ to that person and to be avoided.

  • My wife's a big fan of that show Numb3rs. The main character, Charlie, sees math behind everything, and finds it beautiful. Not being a mathemetician and not it being my favorite subject, never-the-less after a number of episode it became clear to me that the author behind the character was right. Math underlies EVERYTHING. It's the language of God, and demonstrates His brilliance. God the Creator can't help putting math behind everything, because Creation is based on intelligent calculations.

    Another wow for me was learning about chiastic structures see example. Tie the math behind the poetry and music and I just can't help being more and more wowed by God's brilliance in ALL the fields! And, we'll have an eternity to learn it (and get my math grades up ;).

  • I am sure some here would even suggest they can find biblical truth in a Harry Potter series or in the musical presentations of Metallica or MegaDeath.

  • Nathan
    That programme sounds great. In my maths exams I was given a couple of marks for getting my name right on the paper! To this day I struggle with numbers.

    In creation God uses sevens in the formation of leaves, every 7th wave is the biggest – as for Harry Potter, as it isn't a chapter in the Bible, its pointless looking there for Biblical truth!

    I do suspect encrypted within the Word of God may be something about the effect it has had in the world wide promotion of all things Satanic.

    Isn't that the point, the Scriptures are God's Word, so how could it be infected with divination?

    Rodney, you really need to gen up on the facts before you make any more pointless comments on Gematria.imo

  • I am including a small portion of a sermon by Rev. Ian R K Paisley ‘The Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster’ which was given in the USA at Bob Jones University in 1977. It’s based on Daniel 8:13If you want to read it in full, be warned it’s a bit fierce.

    Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? KJV

    “Let me come to Daniel eight verse thirteen. This is a very interesting portion of the prophetic Scriptures. At verse thirteen of Daniel chapter eight we read, "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spoke." If you look at that very carefully, you will find that the word "saint" is not in the original. "Unto that certain which spoke." You will also find a little letter in your Bible at that word "certain" referring you to the margin. If you have an Authorised Version you will find that the marginal reading is "The numberer of secrets, or the wonderful numberer."

    Here we have an angel of God and the business of that angel, his celestial task, has to do with numbers. He is the Lord's mathematician. He does the arithmetic of heaven. Oh yes, there is such a thing as heavenly arithmetic. Here is the angel who does the sums. He is God's celestial calculator and he is called the "wonderful numberer" the "PALMONI" in the Hebrew. You will carefully [7] notice that he numbers secrets. That is what he handles. That is what he traffics in. He traffics in secrets.

    Can I learn what these secrets are? Yes I can! And that is what this Bible is. This Bible is a Book of secrets. That is what it is. In Psalm 25, the Lord has something to tell us about secrets. "The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him; and He will shew them His covenant" (Psalm 25:14). So these secret things are in this Book. If I can study this Book aright I will find out the key to the numbers of this Book and I will be finding the key to God's secret chamber. I tell you, when you get a glimpse and grasp of this key this Book will become a new Book. It will become a living Book. It will become a mysterious Book but its mysteries will be revealed to the one who gets this key”.

    Matthew Henry’s Commentary on Daniel 8:13 say’s ‘the saints’ here are not people but specific angels. He suggests palmoni as being the nameless Christ Himself.

    Perhaps a pre-incarnation of The Son?

  • "I am sure some here would even suggest they can find biblical truth in a Harry Potter series or in the musical presentations of Metallica or MegaDeath."

    Wow, how insulting… What a charge to make just because people don't agree with you.

  • Shoot, I was just in the middle of writing my book The Gospel According to Harry Potter. Guess I'll have to shelve that one now. Oh well, onto writing The Life and Faith of Kurt Cobain. 😉

  • I would like someone, if nothing is hidden no more; to reveal what the 7 thunders uttered In Revelation 10:3 This alone in my belief proves that there are some things that are misteries to us, but as his day draws ever closer, the Holy Ghost will open their eyes to these things as he wills. Gon his his infinite wisdom choose to reveal his mathimatical numbers for when he created certain things, and used numbers to highlight his days of creation and so forth.

    I simply believe this, John 21:25 and thier are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world it self would not contain the books which were written. there are many things which are still to be revealed, and so much more that the word of God doesn't contain!!! If anyone denies this simple truth, you are just looking through flesh eyes. and you simply have not yet allowed the spirit to lead you to this fact. But stay in the Lord, and one day you will.


    missed this place

  • Careful, Nathan! Don't horn in on one of my Life-Changers series:

    "How I Transformed My Life From Kurt Cobain To Kurt Nobrain In One Quick Lesson"

  • The death of a lost individual that seemed to be tormented is not a source of humor, it is sad. Someone has some pretty rotten fruit being exhibited here.

  • It seems that some Christians can not seem to let go of former pagan or occultic ways, they seek to incorporate them into their own belief system.

  • Proverbs 25: 2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

    The Lord has conceled the 'light switch' to encourage His people to have an active faith rather than expecting to be spoon fed couch potatos. imo

  • Rodney said…
    "It seems that some Christians can not seem to let go of former pagan or occultic ways, they seek to incorporate them into their own belief system".

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, as an opinion is making a judgment when lacking factual evidence. It is your personal estimation that you are using as ‘stones’ to cast at those whose faith you judge as inferior to your own.

    Yes we are to judge what is said, which is what you have rightly done; but that isn’t enough for you, as you poke and prod for your ‘pound of flesh’. You persistently throw at us the stones you call pagan, occultic, mystic, carnal … Yet you in turn are disregarding God’s Word not to cast stones John 8:7; and not to judge a brother Matt 7:1-5.

    I understand Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has the same attitude as he is about to go into Lebanon to throw stones at Israel!

  • Rodney,

    It is really no wonder why you have been banned from several sights after reading your comments on this section. You come in here and accuse people of being occultists, and pagans! Shame on you!

    I'm having a hard time understanding how you don't get what is being said…? If you don't see mathematics in scripture, fine, but that doesn't make us occultists, and pagans!

    What next, are you going to go about explaining how Revelation 13:18 has nothing to do with numbers?

    Rev 13:18 "This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666."

    I mean, my goodness, we have an entire book in the Bible titled the Book of Numbers!

    Are you going to deny that the numbers 3 and seven have meaning in Judaism, and God's word?

  • I apologize if my humor is a little too coarse for you.

    However, our commission is to reach the lost in this life while there is yet time, not to lament those who have already finalized their fate.

    "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." – Matthew 8:22

    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. – 1 Thessalonians 4:13

    Psalm 37:13 The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

    51:5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah.
    6 The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him.

    58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

  • Rodney,
    It seems that you have steadfastly refused a maternal voice of caution to reexamine your shaky premise.

    You have been frequently found on "thin ice" before but now, having broken through and in danger of being swept under the ice, you slap away the maternal hand of reason offered to you.

    One of the reasons that I that I took a chance and chose to burn up much of Nathan's web space posting the majority of another man's article [which Nathan graciously let slip w/o admonition] is that "The Gospel in Genesis" is on the surface of Scripture, in plain view of all, not a single "number" involved, and no "mystic calculations" as you accuse.

    So plainly on the surface that, as Pastor Missler indicates, "…we often tend to skim over quickly as we pass through Genesis, it's simply a genealogy…But God always rewards the diligent student…" as EI points out in Proverbs 25:2, a Scripture that I and others have likened to the joy of parents in watching their children discover the hidden treasures in an Easter Egg Hunt. [OMG, I must be clinging to "…former pagan or occultic ways…"]

    And it also confirmed what seemed to becoming more clear, that you were not bothering in the slightest to even follow a link, let alone, examine anything that would shed the "Light of Truth" on the issue, as it is now blatantly obvious to others.

    Yet you immediately responded to the proffered Gospel, w/o the slightest indication of any comprehension whatsoever, with more accusations of "…occultic means…", another unfounded judgment of "…the spiritual condition of the seeker. Carnality is visible without reservation…", and above all concluding the Majestic fore-ordination of God, who planned ahead that the parents of the patriarchs, w/o their knowledge, would so name their children in such a pattern as to glorify the Gospel of His precious Son, is "…mystic mumbo jumbo never set me on fire for God…

    I demand of you:
    Show me "occultism" in what I have put forth. Show me "numerology" if you can even give a reasonable description of either from your confused point of view.

    I hope for your sake that your destination is not what the Scripture warns us of: to beware of those desperately desiring to be a "Watchman", "…teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm…", fearmongering shamen seeking power to deprive others of real blessings of the treasures of His Word.

  • God desires that none should perish, but that all, would come to repentance. The Lord takes pleasure in the judgment on sin itself, but it breaks his heart that his creation rebells agains him and rejects his love offering, his tithe on our behalf if you will. and he must judge a sinners soul, and cast them into hell. Lord this should be our desire.


  • In rebuttal to all concerned I will provide documentation also supporting my statements here. I would like to also add that Biblical Gematria was introduced by the Hebrew Roots Movement bringing Kabbalistic or gnostic teachings into the Christian Church. Gnosticism basically teaches that spiritual insight or illumination is hidden from all but a select chosen few. The link is as follows:, may it be a blessing to all.

  • Would this be considered a select chosen few Rodney:

    Rev 13:18 "This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666."

  • Quite so Rodney! Exactly as predicted! Your ‘proof’ lays with the critics not the recorded historical facts.

    And you believe the critics because …?

  • Rodney
    I have read your evidence at your link.

    This article groans on and on about a newspaper hack called Drosnin that ripped off Ripps’s research and used it to write his ridiculous books. I posses an old video which I recorded off the tv; of an interview with Elijahu Ripps, and his co- workers, stating plainly that Drosnin’s ideas are wrong and Ripps repudiates any involvement with Drosnin’s farce.

    Hank Hanagraaf – hmm, a Preterist I hear? Isn’t he the man who took advantage of a widow at her husbands funeral? Is it he who proceeded to use monies of a ministry he took hold of by deception? The family are still battling to take back the reigns of the late Walter Martin’ CRI ministry. Walter was the original,‘Bible Answer Man’.

    We can again agree with you yet again Rodney, that Drosnin's version of Biblical Numerics is appaling.

  • Rodney,

    Your so-called "rebuttal" is simply an end-run to evade accountability in having to giving proper answers to the many errant statements and baseless accusations you have thrown out.

    Rather than using a weak link as a proxy and digging your hole deeper, how about answering for yourself.

    Again, in the above article: "Show me "occultism" in what I have put forth. Show me "numerology" if you can…"

    Rodney said…

    "…E.I., there is no evidence that this has convinced anyone…"

    Had you actually looked with your own eyes at any of the links on Dr. Panin's bio, within the first one or two paragraphs, you would have found that Dr. Panin, a Nihilist [Atheist] at the time of his discovery, when faced with the astronomically impossible statistics that these features could have been in the Scriptures by random chance, was converted to Christ and devoted the majority of his life to showing forth the seamless majesty of every single jot and tittle of God's eternal Word.

    Sorry, Rodney. No points on that one.

    "…in fact it is a reason for mocking among the scientific community…"

    This statement is not a point in your favor, proving Bible Numerics/Gematria wrong. Rather it is just the opposite as we are fore-warned in Jude 18 that Truth would always be mocked, especially in the end-times:

    Jude 18 "How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts."

    Again, no points here!

    And to which "scientific community" are you now "catering" to?

    You have impuned others as …those of supposed biblical scholarship… and accused them of …attempt[ing] to reconcile themselves with the scientific community…, clearly intimating said community as a worldly standard.

    Now you portray this same community as a standard for what is truth and what is mockable!

    Which way do you want to have it Rodney??

  • Gematria is not the truth, the Word of God is truth. I have shown the folly of these fables, yet if you choose to continue to believe in it, I can do nothing but consider this as a dog returning to his vomit. Numeral sequencing or even meanings of names pale in comparison to the true treasure of the Word of God.

  • Thanx for the "compliment" Rodney…

    Again, in the above article "The Gospel in Genesis": "Show me "occultism" in what I have put forth. Show me "numerology" if you can…"

    If you cannot properly defend your "position", then please stop with the insults.

    There is an old 'proverb', a paraphrase of several Biblical proverbs together:

    "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!"

  • It has never been my intention to be harsh with you Rodney, but rather, words of caution to "Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." -2 Timothy 2:15

    If you wish to open a "can o' worms", please check the expiration date and be prepared to either fish with them or hold your nose for what you have opened in your own boat.

    I feel sorry for you Rodney, that you so full of such sightlessness and venom.

  • Rodney

    Not able to get their own way, a petulant child will stick his fingers in his ears, close eyes, stamp feet and shake head repeatedly while screaming 'not true, not true…'.

    All that does is gain attention from disbelieving adults who walk away in disgust at the ridiculous pantomime.

  • For the rest here,

    In Re: "The Bible Code: Prophetic Insight or Fertile Imagination?" by G. Richard Fisher, link provided by Rodney.

    If one has the facts to make a valid case, then it is not necessary to begin the article by "pre-conditioning" your audience by employing "character and/or fact assassination" to create "guilt by association" by pointing to other discredited "fads", individuals, or organizations, unless they are directly connected.

    This is an old Marxist trick to silence opponents, and when one begins in such a fashion the rest is then suspect as so much hype and possible outright misrepresentations pending careful examinations by the readers.

    Proceed with caution. -'nuff said.

  • "…even meanings of names pale in comparison to the true treasure of the Word of God…"

    Spock: Captain, this statement is illogical as these names are recorded in the Word for the very purpose of being some of the boundless "true treasures of the Word"!

    Captain Kirk: Well then, logic demands that we fire a Photon Torpedo [Light of truth bomb] at the source of this confusion…

  • DrNogog
    Marxism eh! Ha that goes with someone else’s view of Rodders being a Muhammadon; and was he a follower of a certain sex crazed Rabbi? Surely not!

    Don K politely said he needed to learn some Bible prophecy and gave him a link. (Don't think he used it?)

    Joel of the Trumpet was threatened with 'exposure' terrifying the poor man for the sake of his little family; when banned, another poster wrote “Wise choice, it’s obvious this guy is not interested in an intelligent debate but in making trouble…”

    Generally a reaction of bewildered disgust stretches across the net in the wake of Rodney’s bellicose personal opinions.

    Isn’t it interesting what a search on Google can reveal during one’s tea break (Indian, not China). Cheers!

  • WOW, that was a close call, thought I was choking on my vomit, but it was just one of the stones Rodney keeps throwing got lodged in my throat, its out now though.

  • Pappapishu! I'm glad I'm not into these highly intellectual, mathmatical, grammatical, linguistic arguments. My brain was about to EXPLODE just SKIMMING over these posts!

    My opinion is when you start to overthink and overanalyze this stuff it does you no good.

    Just a good old simplist faith in Jesus is good enough for me. These posts are way beyond my comprehension.

  • That was supposed to be "simplistic faith" btw.

    And there's nothing wrong with simple faith. I even think it may be preferred. My brain doesn't tell me to believe in Jesus. My heart does.

  • Finally, "pappapishu" (may not be spelled correctly) was a funny phrase used by Guybrush Threepwood in Monkey Island 3 (a LucasArts PC Adventure game). I've always wanted to use it. 🙂

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